[Dr. Horrible] Something new from Joss Whedon, Nathan Fillion & Neil Patrick Harris

Cafe Society
181

[QUOTE=winterhawk11]

A LiveJournal friend of mine, a Whedon fan and fairly hardcore feminist, was complaining that she didn’t like the ending because she thought Whedon could do better than “fridging.” I didn’t know this term, so I had to look it up–apparently, it’s when a superhero’s female love interest gets killed (named after one famous incident where the hero’s girlfriend was murdered and put in his refrigerator). Has anyone else ever heard this term? Is it a hardcore feminist idea, a fandom idea, a bit of both, or more mainstream and I just managed to miss it? I admit I was a little annoyed that she died, but not for that reason. I just thought it was kind of a cheap way out.

[/QUOTE]

Wikipedia has an article about it: Women in refrigerators - Wikipedia

I heard about it on the Dope a year or two ago and read the Wikipedia page. I don’t know if that means that it’s well known or just that the SDMB is a good place to find out esoteric knowledge.

182

[QUOTE=Miller]
Brilliantly subverted, incidentally, in this webcomic.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, that is great! I love it! Thanks. :slight_smile:

183

About that:

[spoiler]I did notice the fridging, yeah. It’s one of the few quibbles I had with the plot – it makes Penny into less of a character and more of… well, not even a plot device. Just a facet of backstory.

On the other hand, the nasty thing about fridging is that it’s so random and unimportant. What happens to her is vitally important to the ending of the story. How else could the story end while keeping Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer the guys they are? If Penny lived, seeing what Dr. Horrible did would have just pretty well turned her against him. This way, he can go on thinking that she Really Would Have Loved Him After All.

He can also blame Captain Hammer because he’s the one who pulled the trigger while Horrible was warning him not to. I think he saw how badly the Death Ray was damaged – it did start throwing some red sparks, and Hammer wasn’t really bright enough to know what that meant. And while he surely hates Hammer he couldn’t bring himself to kill the guy, nor did he want to die in the explosion that followed. Hammer, of course, can blame him because it was his stupid science thing that hurt him and did Penny in. Plus, he’s profiting off her death.

So in other words, for the sake of sequels, Penny had to die.[/spoiler]

184

Exactly what I said in Post #121, Little Plastic Ninja. And I don’t think Hammer was castrated…he was crying on the couch that his heart hurt. And yes, Dr. Horrible noticed that the death ray was malfunctioning and tried to stop Hammer from using it…

Ooh, i think that was my first spoiler box!

185

I didn’t really like it. I didn’t hate it. But I just didn’t like it, either. The only really worthwhile part was Captain Hammer. Nathan Fillion made me laugh every time he was on the screen. But it didn’t make me think, “Oh, this is why I love Joss.” In fact, it made me think “Oh, this is why I’m probably not going to watch Dollhouse or anything else he ever does.” My best friend was stunned when Penny died and crying because Dr. Horrible was all alone. I was stunned that anybody could be surprised. I knew she was going to die as soon as we saw her face. Come on, that’s what Joss does. And my best friend is my bf b/c we met through BtVS fandom!

So in conclusion, would have been a big waste of time if not for Nathan “The hammer is my penis!” Fillion.

186

[QUOTE=kittenblue]
Exactly what I said in Post #121, Little Plastic Ninja. And I don’t think Hammer was castrated…he was crying on the couch that his heart hurt. And yes, Dr. Horrible noticed that the death ray was malfunctioning and tried to stop Hammer from using it…

Ooh, i think that was my first spoiler box!
[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah? Well, I… said it also! :wink:

Fillion fangirl though I am, Harris blew me away. And I’m not a crazy Whedonfan, either. I remember trying to join the local Browncoat mailing list. I thought ‘Hey, I like this show, they like this show, we have something in common!’ I realized soon that I was not a Whedon fan. I was a tiny glimmering sequin in a sea of 100-karat diamonds. Being a reasonable sequin, I just backed off slowly.

187

I agree…Harris was amazing. I’d never seen him in Rent or Sweeney Todd, so his singing really impressed me, as did every evocative twitch of his eye or his lip. The subtle change in Act I from “she talked to me…why did she talk to me now?” was so good. I’m not a huge Whedon fan either…I tend to ignore producers and directors and writers and couldn’t have told you last week what else he’s done besides Firefly.

188

[QUOTE=Little Plastic Ninja]
Being a reasonable sequin, I just backed off slowly.
[/QUOTE]

I think you need to change your user name to ‘Reasonable Sequin’. :slight_smile:

And yes, Harris was amazing. I’m actually kinda looking forward to seeing any sort-of out-takes from this project.

189

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
I disagree, to a point. First, I wouldn’t compare it to Sondheim - that’s a pretty high bar. I might compare it to Andrew Lloyd Weber, though - and that song with Penny and Dr. Horrible singing different lyrics to the same melody was brilliant.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t have used the Sondheim comparison either, but someone else in the thread was earlier. I think lyrically there could be some comparisons. Certianly there were some clever and multi-layered lyrics. Musically I don’t think it would stand up to either Sondheim or Lloyd Webber. I’d say especially not Lloyd Webber. Some of his stuff is really complex, although you wouldn’t know it because the melodies are so strong and stand out. He has a real gift for melody, making them stand out and be memorable, but the music is still wicked hard for a lot of his stuff.

Enjoy,
Steven

190

I think I was the one to bring up Sondheim, and I was just pointing out the influence from it. Well, originally I was hocking out Assassins like a pimp, but then I was pointing out influences. The comparison part would be about the lyrical wordplay, and it really is the clearest and most understood.

191

[QUOTE=Little Plastic Ninja]
About that:

[spoiler]I did notice the fridging, yeah. It’s one of the few quibbles I had with the plot – it makes Penny into less of a character and more of… well, not even a plot device. Just a facet of backstory.

On the other hand, the nasty thing about fridging is that it’s so random and unimportant. What happens to her is vitally important to the ending of the story. How else could the story end while keeping Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer the guys they are? If Penny lived, seeing what Dr. Horrible did would have just pretty well turned her against him. This way, he can go on thinking that she Really Would Have Loved Him After All.

He can also blame Captain Hammer because he’s the one who pulled the trigger while Horrible was warning him not to. I think he saw how badly the Death Ray was damaged – it did start throwing some red sparks, and Hammer wasn’t really bright enough to know what that meant. And while he surely hates Hammer he couldn’t bring himself to kill the guy, nor did he want to die in the explosion that followed. Hammer, of course, can blame him because it was his stupid science thing that hurt him and did Penny in. Plus, he’s profiting off her death.

So in other words, for the sake of sequels, Penny had to die.[/spoiler]
[/QUOTE]

[SPOILER]So, if they do make a sequel, just imagine how much worse it’d be between the two of them if Captain Hammer ever got his game on again.

Did anyone notice that nobody actually cared that Penny had died, except for Horrible and maybe Hammer? (as was just pointed out by kittenblue, he was apparently saying his heart hurt, which granted could just be a result of the range he was from the exploding death ray). All of the news articles talked about “Captain Hammer’s Girlfriend” and “What’s-her-name”.

Also, because I like to read entirely too much into things, during the first Bad Horse tune, did anyone notice how the one cowboy sang directly to Moist at “A murder would be nice of course…”? I like to think that if Dr Horrible failed, it was Moist’s henchmanly duty to kill him.

Oh, and one more thing: Dr Horrible owns an XBox. I don’t know why this amuses me so much.[/SPOILER]

192

Maybe it’s me growing up in the '80s, but I couldn’t help thinking that there should have been a duel between Capt. Hammer and Inspector Sledge Hammer

A nigh-invulnerable, somewhat obtuse superhero (rather Tick-esque at that) Vs. a psychotic police detective with a love of excessive violence and a tendency to talk to his gun (Ruger Blackhawk .44 Magnum)

Sledge would have made short work of Dr. Horrible, and he’d probably only get a mild yelling-at by Capt. Trunk

Heh, imagine the chaos of a world with Capt. Hammer, Dr. Horrible, The Tick, and Sledge Hammer

193

[QUOTE=Little Plastic Ninja]
About that:

I did notice the fridging, yeah. It’s one of the few quibbles I had with the plot – it makes Penny into less of a character and more of… well, not even a plot device. Just a facet of backstory.

[/QUOTE]

[spoiler]But that is all she was to the main characters. Dr. Horrible just thought she was cute and barely knew her. She’s a crusader to help the homeless, and he thought she’d perk up after he killed Captain Hammer if he gave her Australia to rule after he takes over the world.

Captain Hammer only dated (and screwed) her to piss off Dr. Horrible. Then he reveled in the publicity he got for pushing through the homeless shelter thing, and treated her like a trophy at the press conference/opening ceremony. So it’s completely appropriate for those two. At least other superheroes really loved their girlfriends-pre-fridging.[/spoiler]

194

I have to say I loved it. It’s been awhile since Buffy’s “Once More With Feeling” musical episode and it’s fun to see another musical project from Joss. Neil Patrick and Nathan Fillion are perfect in their respective roles as tragically lovable supervillain and swarmy superhero. I love how Hammer’s costume consists of a hammer logo tshirt and gloves. I didn’t want to do battle with web video so I skipped the three night free internet premiere and just spent the $4 on itunes. It’s about 45 minutes so compared to a regular dvd it’s a little cheap but compared to a tv episode it’s a little expensive. Rumor is the DVD will go overboard on silly extras, including a musical commentary track. Other fun moments:

Dr H’s iphone web app vehicle remote control

“I’ve got a PHD in horribleness.”

“The Hammer is my penis”

“I also need to be a little more careful about what I say on this blog; Apparently the LAPD and Captain Hammer are among our viewers.”

The power to… sog

“The status is not quo”

“You are not my nemesis”

“I hate the homeless… [flips cuecard] …ness problem”

“Wow. Sarcasm. That’s original.” [realization sinks in]

“And sometimes there’s a third even deeper level. And that one is the same as the top surface one… Like with pie.”

“his terrible…death whinny…”

OK Joss, we’re hooked. When’s the next one?

195

This is the genuine article - used in the filiming of Dr Horrible :slight_smile: http://www.thesoftwire.com/horrible_remote.html

196

This may have been covered already, but one of Bad Horse’s requirements for Doc. Horrible to enter TELOE was for him to kill someone, presumably, Penny’s death was what gained him admission into the League…

the thing is, Doc H. didn’t directly kill Penny, as it was Capt. Hammer that pulled the trigger on the malfunctioning Stun…Err “Death” Ray, and the shrapnel from the explosion is what killed Penny, so it was actually Hammer that killed Penny…

theoretically, that death should be invalid as a criteria for admission, as Doc H. didn’t directly kill her, yes, he (presumably) built the Stun…err “Death” ray that killed her, but there was no direct Dr. H induced death

197

[QUOTE=MacTech]
Theoretically, that death should be invalid as a criteria for admission, as Doc H. didn’t directly kill her, yes, he (presumably) built the Stun…err “Death” ray that killed her, but there was no direct Dr. H induced death
[/QUOTE]

Nope. In California, any death that occurs during the commission of a crime is First Degree Murder. It doesn’t matter to the Law (and apparently to Bad Horse) that the actual trigger pull was Hammer’s. Horrible committed the crime, so he gets the blame (credit).

198

[QUOTE=MacTech]
theoretically, that death should be invalid as a criteria for admission, as Doc H. didn’t directly kill her, yes, he (presumably) built the Stun…err “Death” ray that killed her, but there was no direct Dr. H induced death
[/QUOTE]

But everyone thought it was Dr Horrible that was responsible, he said himself when he was about to kill Captain Hammer - blog about it, take a picture - ie. tell everyone it was “Horrible”. And you hear reporters in the background when he discovers Penny saying “why did you do it?” So he got the credit for it even if he wasn’t really responsible

199

[QUOTE=Bosstone]
Can you elucidate why you thought it sucked? Honest question, I’m interested in a negative critique.
[/QUOTE]

I think the songs are catchy as hell, and the little bits of Whedonesque dialogue are hilarious (“We do the weird stuff,” “I don’t need tiny cue cards”), but I was actually disappointed with it as a whole.

Sorry to tease, but I’ll be back to explain tomorrow at the latest; I’m clocking out in just a minute here.

200

[QUOTE=MacTech]
This may have been covered already, but one of Bad Horse’s requirements for Doc. Horrible to enter TELOE was for him to kill someone, presumably, Penny’s death was what gained him admission into the League…

the thing is, Doc H. didn’t directly kill Penny, as it was Capt. Hammer that pulled the trigger on the malfunctioning Stun…Err “Death” Ray, and the shrapnel from the explosion is what killed Penny, so it was actually Hammer that killed Penny…

theoretically, that death should be invalid as a criteria for admission, as Doc H. didn’t directly kill her, yes, he (presumably) built the Stun…err “Death” ray that killed her, but there was no direct Dr. H induced death
[/QUOTE]

I dunno, simultaneously defeating the hero AND getting him to kill his own girlfriend (however unintentionally) has got to count for something. :smiley: