If murder carries a moral connotation that is specially reserved for humans purely because of us giving them special status, then I can’t see why one should object to the use of the term by someone who considers that killing an animal is morally wrong, and rejects the de facto special status given to humans. Words are defined, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t flexible when the underlying justifications are under question. If you have an issue with the idea that killing an animal is in some sense wrong for the same reasons that killing a human is, then perhaps you should come out and defend that position instead of hiding behind an evasive semantic quibble.
Now I’m confused…they were ordered to party and shoot the tiger??
No. Let me backtrack here. I stated earlier that DtC seems TO ME to always post shit that is against the interests of what we’re trying to do.
Of course the troops were not ordered to shoot a tiger. Anyone that could infer that from what I’ve been saying throughout this thread is a complete idiot.
Nor was I EVER stating that they were ordered to party. In fact, I posted a link to where it seems that the ISRAELIS are importing beer to Iraq. I also stated MANY times that I could be completely wrong.
Now then, If, IF there were soldiers that somehow managed to get drunk, wear civilian clothing, take their military vehicles WITH THEIR WEAPONS, and get in trouble as was stated in the report that started this op, then they deserve whatever happens to them.
milroyj, Xploder, from the OED:
I. Literal uses
[…]
3. trans.
[…]
b. To kill or slaughter (an animal or animals).
_
__1600 SHAKESPEARE 2 Hen. IV IV. iii. 207 Like the bees,…We bring it to the hiue: and like the bees, Are murdred for our paines. 1704 B. MANDEVILLE Æsop Dress’d 57 Perhaps he might have foul’d the Bed, Murder’d a Bird. 1773 J. ROBERTSON Poems Several Occasions 104 It was a shame To murder birds of any sort but Game. 1851 H. MELVILLE Moby-Dick lxv. 335 No doubt the first man that ever murdered an ox was regarded as a murderer. 1863 W. C. BALDWIN Afr. Hunting vi. 192, I found Swartz and the Kaffirs exulting over a cow and young heifer, which they had murdered among them in about twelve shots. a1902 F. NORRIS Pit (1903) vii. 232, I don’t believe in lounging around clubs, or playing with race horses, or murdering game birds. 1954 J. STEINBECK Sweet Thursday iii. 20 Killer whales attacked the sea lions near Seal Rocks and murdered a great number of them. 1991 N.Y. Mag. 9 Sept. 40/3 In Fiji I was soon squashing insects… At first I’d yelp with disgust, but soon I was shouting gleefully as I mashed. And then the shouting stopped and I just murdered them in blasé silence.
What are we trying to do? I thought we were protecting ourselves against WMDs. Obviously that’s bullshit and this little enterprise has now become a money pit and an administrative nightmare. I was against the invasion but we’re stuck with the occupation. I just wish we had someone competent in charge. IMO, what we should do is turn over all authority to the UN and work with them to help get Iraq up and running again. I would like to see Iraq become an autonomous democracy (not a US puppet regime) but I think that Bush is doing everything wrong to achieve that goal. If our troops are repeatedly damaging and looting Iraqi property and if (notice I said “if”) they really do feel at liberty to roll around in military vehicles, out of uniform, drinking while armed and partying on Iraqi property then that is a failure of leadership. I think the UN can do a better job of administering this occupation than Bush (who just seems to be on an ego trip and doesn’t actually give a shit about the Iraqi people. Barring that, I feel would feel extremely comfortable with a CiC who happens to be a four star general and who has experience administering a massive military occupation.
Why does it matter what we want for Iraq anyway. Shouldn’t the Iraqi people be able to decide for themselves what they want?
Webster’s clearly defines “murder” as killing humans. So dictionary.com :rolleyes: and OED define it differently. So what? Killing a tiger is still NOT murder.
Y’all are arguing semantics. Just agree to disagree.
And it seems TO ME that your kneejerk reaction was to attack DtC rather than address the substance of his post which is pretty much what you are accusing him of doing.
You seem to agree with the OP then but you sound like you have to admit it grudgingly. Why the “IF”? Of course all the opinions expressed are all dependent on the facts being true and there is no need to say that. But you sound like you don’t want to believe it happened. To me it sounds like saying “IF the holocaust happened it was awful”. It sounds like not wanting to admit the fact when all evidence points at it being true. Or do you have reasons to doubt?
The OED does not define it differently, just more expansively. (The OED is the definitive English dictionary, btw…just in case you weren’t aware of that).
It has been shown to you now with several different cites that the use of the word “murder” does not have to be confined to the killing of humans and that my use was perfectly acceptable linguistically. Can you please get off of this obtuse hijack now and either address the substance of the OP or just piss off?
Accusing people of being anti-American for disagreeing with you is what is fucking anti-American.
milroyj-there was some idiot woman here in Pittsburgh who went to the zoo, climbed over a fence, and proceded to pet an Amazon River Dolphin. The dolphin bit her hand and wouldn’t let go, requiring stitches and I believe physical therapy.
Yet the dolphin-GASP!-wasn’t put down!
So much for your little explanation.
I could be wrong. I just don’t remember anything much coming of the pillaging of the Baghdad Airport and this is a similar sort of incident.
I don’t think the administration wants bad PR about US troops and so they may not be aggressive about pursuing something like this.
Upon reflection, I’m not completely sure why I was so confident in that assertion. It was just a gut-feeling written in the heat of the moment. I could be totally wrong. I hope I am.
There is a particular kind of posters I detest and it is those who, instead of dealing with the substance of the thread, insist on trying to derail it on some minor point which dos not affect the substance at all. It is just an attempt to go on a tangent when you do not have arguments to address the substance and it is a very low thing to do. If you want to argue about semantics open another thread. I recently had to endure a similar thing in another thread and it is frustrating. If the intended meaning is clear and has been made clear by the poster, what is the point of harping relentlessly on such a silly point?
Fucko off. Words do have meanings, you know. Unless you are prepared to argue that by walking on it, I am somehow murdering the grass, or that if I eat at KFC, I am somehow murdering chickens, you need to pipe down. Killing a tiger that is eating your buddy’s arm off is NOT murder.
Where’s Jack Lemmon when you need him?
milroyj, do you have any evidence which contradicts this and proves these are exceptions to the rule?
AS for how the soldiers will be dealt with, Xploder wrote “If you actually think that they would be treated the same as if this had happened in an American zoo then you’re breathing fumes or something” which for me is enough to condemn the “justice”. The punishment would as severe, if not more, as if they had done exactly the same thing in any US zoo. Anything less is not justice.
Give me a cite that who we have in charge is NOT competent.
Blah blah blah I hate bush.
If our troops are repeatedly damaging and looting Iraqi then that WOULD be a MAJOR failure of leadership.
blah blah the UN can do better blah blah blah
For your information, the Commander of Centcom IS a four start General. As for having experience administering a massive military occupation (in YOUR words since I don’t recall ANYTHING saying that we were occupying Iraq) good luck finding one.
Tiger, bear, wolf, attacks human, and tiger, bear, wolf dies. I truly don’t see a problem with that, YMMV.
Granted.
**
Because, regardless of Godwin’s Law, I KNOW that the holocaust happened…my Dad was there. What this op was based on was a news report with NO corroborating evidence. What I’ve said ALL ALONG you dickweed, was that IF THIS REPORT IS TRUE then the people involved should be punished.
I challenge you to find where I said ANYTHING different.
Did I call it, or did I call it?
And according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, one of the meanings of the word “murder,” in verb form, is “to slaughter wantonly.” This, by the way, is the dictionary you looked up, but you inexplicably forgot to look at the VERB form of the word.
Why you insist on believing “murder” has just one definition when anyone with a brain can see it does not, I do not understand. The guy’s point was crystal clear, really.