So, the #3 of the last WC manages to lose to Iceland (!) twice(!!!), draw and now lose to Turkey 0-3. in the process making qualifying for EC16 extremely unlikely- as in mathematically still theoretically possible, but the Browns are more likely to win back-to-back super bowls.
This has to be one of the more pathetic implosions ever.
Also, I need to go now and cry a little bit.
Their last two world cup appearances were extremely cynical and ugly. Good.
What a dumb thing to post. All based on one game, where their ugly game plan almost won them the World Cup against vastly superior opposition.
What the qualifying is concerned: a combination of individual mistakes, bad form, bad luck and being not nearly as good as they think they are. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if they still made it. Turkey losing one of their matches isn’t that inconceivable; Holland beating Kazakhstan and the Czech Republic might be the bigger hurdle:dubious:.
Mexico wasn’t vastly superior opposition ;).
Bullshit. In 2010 they had 24 yellows, the most of any team in the tournament, and should have had an extra red thrown in for a horrible blown call in the final. In 2014 Robben flopped up and down the pitch for the entire tournament and they had the 3rd most yellows in the tournament. Both tournaments they played more matches than other teams, but the cards per match was significantly above average in both cases.
Any even if it did almost win them the 2010 cup it was extremely ugly and cynical which is the only thing I said. Fuck 'em.
Given all the things you can get a yellow for, it is not that good a measure of “ugliness” and “cynicism”. In 2014 third most yellows is not that bad as there were 4 teams that played 7 games (the next most is 5) and they had to go to extra time twice (which means more time and more tiredness, which leads to clumsy yellows).
If “flopping” is that big a problem for you, then you can chuck out the whole of South- and central America as well. Robben admitted to one dive (didn’t get the call and apologized without being asked about it), with the direct result of Costa Rica trying to break his legs in the next match (and then pleying innocent and making “diving” gestures). I actually do think he kind of deserved that, but many more do. To brand the Dutch collectively as an extreme example of divers is bullshit.
About the two tournaments:
2010
Japan, Cameroon and Denmark were beaten in the group stages efficiently without being spectacular.
Slovakia and Uruguay was the same, as one would expect.
The Quarters against Brazil were tight and tense affairs, where in the end it were the Brazilians that let themselves go.
The final against Spain was tough and ugly, but you can’t deny it almost paid off. Although very people in the Netherlands would have cared.
2014
A surprising 5-1 victory against Spain. A good game against Australia that was just won by 3-2 and a more defensive performance against Chile that was won 2-0. I guess you could call that last win ugly, if you really dislike defensive tactics.
Mexico and Costa Rica both mostly showed the team struggled to break down defensive teams, but they did so in the end. Really not much about the Dutch tactics that were ugly or cynical, they just struggled… and won deservedly in the end.
The semi could against Argentina could have gone either way; they lost, so be it. Two cagey teams that didn’t want to lose. Like we see often in the later stages of tournaments.
Beat Brazil 3-0 in that terrible torture that is the “small final”.
You can blow that one game out of proportion all you want. You may dislike Robben all you want. you may dislike the Dutch team all you want. You’re just wrong if you claim they have been particularly ugly or cynical over the last two tournaments.
You have to place it in context that the Dutch were once admired for playing beautiful football. In comparison with the great sides of the past, the recent Dutch teams have been tragically agricultural.
Your post reads like a defence of Sweden or Iceland or some such, where ugly, defensive play is the only game in town, so can be justified.
Count me as someone who’s been a fan of the Dutch national soccer team for decades. Or at least as someone who was a fan of the Dutch national soccer team until I viewed the 2010 World Cup Final. An absolute disgrace. I no longer care about the Dutch national men’s soccer team. If they’re dropping points against the likes of ICELAND these days then they deserve whatever they get. Which in this case, is NOTHING. As someone else posted, above: “F*ck 'em.”
The 2010 final was a disgrace, I will concede that. The rest of that tournament, however, wasn’t like that for the Dutch team. Not sure why they changed it up in that final, probably felt outmatched. They paid for it, and deservedly so. But they were a contender.
In 2014 they played great. That Spain match was beautiful for anyone who loves the game and isn’t Spanish. Those calls on Robben diving are largely horseshit. Robben was perpetually aggressively attacked by defenders who just couldn’t keep up. The fact that the entire nation of Mexico got butthurt over a call that was both correct and overdue (there was an earlier foul that wasn’t called) is too bad. They just did not deserve to win that game. Holland got too timid in the semi - trying not to lose is never attractive and again they paid for it. But they were a contender.
I have no idea what is going on now. Losing to Iceland in EC soccer should be the punch line of some joke. Losing twice to them is like a running gag. Except the joke is this Nederlands elftal. Which is now effectively out of contention.
Jesus, you could have made a lot of money betting on this.
Despite being a Germany fan, I still think the Dutch can be fun to watch, so I’ll miss them. I certainly would have wished this on France or Italy before the Dutch.
I’m a big fan. They were ugly and cynical in 2010. Not in 2014.
This is utterly bizarre, I can only assume some rose coloured spectacles thing is going on.
Robben was an utter disgrace in the 2014 World Cup. However, I don’t damn the entire team for the actions of one player.
No, he isn’t wrong. I have both eyes thankfully and and I saw the dutch in those tournaments as well, and they were completely cynical about their play and their objectives.
I don’t even have a problem with it, they did what they felt they had to for success, but lets not pretend it didn’t happen at all.
Several comments are overlooking Iceland here. They’ve worked very hard over the last 15-20 years to put an infrastructure in place that allows them to practice (especially at youth level) all year round and they’re now developing pretty good footballers. Look at their squad and almost all their players are 25-28 - at the peak of their careers. Iceland is also a difficult place to go and get a win - they didn’t just beat the Dutch at home, they beat Turkey and the Czechs at home. They very nearly qualified for the 2014 World Cup. Are they going to rip up trees at the Euros - probably not - but they’re an indication that the middle and small ranking nations in Europe, with sensible investment and focus, are becoming ever harder to beat.*
*NB: Jonathan Wilson is worth listening to on this subject - he’s The Guardian’s football correspondent who’s beat is essentially everywhere “not big” - knows his Hungarian football for instance and spends loads of time in Africa working out what is going on out there. He’s been on about Iceland for a while.
Meanwhile, the Dutch have fallen foul to a few things I think. They thought that they could coast the qualifying - as the top 2 go through and the 3rd goes into a playoff, they probably thought that they could take their foot off the gas a little and have been caught underestimating teams that have unfashionable names in their sides but are better organised than you might expect. Also, if you look at their squad, they have very few very good to great players in that 25-28 age range - arguably only Daley Blind is in that age range and could be deemed to be in the top class. Their best players are starting to come to the end of their career (witness how Van Persie and Snijder are now no longer able to hold down places in Europe’s top leagues and are out in Turkey as a result; Robben is 31) or are just starting out (Memphis being a good example), so they’re in an odd period with respect to the talent in their team. They also lost Van Gaal, who worked pretty well with the national side, adapting their tactics to the players that they had. Hiddink came back in and insisted that they go back to the traditional Dutch 4-3-3 but they probably don’t have the players to make it work as well as in the past. He’s now gone and Danny Blind is the manager and having to pick up the pieces, in itself a difficult task.
When looked at like this, if I’d given you the characteristics of the teams, without reference to player, manager or country names, I think a clear eyed view of the situation would be Team A will likely give Team B some real problems and might even beat them. So it has proved. It’s not just a Dutch implosion - though that has been a factor, with the reasons around it as I’ve described above - the other nations are in position to cause them problems, because they’ve done good things to generate at least some talent and are using it as best as they can. Iceland definitely deserve at least some credit.
As a Manchester United fan I wouldn’t deem him anywhere near top class, a good player that I’m happy to have in the squad but nowhere near top class at all. Which I suppose speaks to the Dutch lack of quality at the moment.
That’s basically why I included the word “arguably”. Every time I have seen him and been impressed, it’s been when he’s been playing in defensive midfield - as he did for a bit under LVG for Holland - rather than at centre back. I suspect he could be a world class DM but he is average at best at CB.
I was actually thinking of him in midfield, he featured there for United last season before moving to left back. Again, he wasn’t terrible there but not world class either, and he certainly didn’t make the position his own.
All just my opinion though.
Always worth a link to The Bugle podcast. I give you Mark Van Bommel’s diary
I don’t follow them very closely, but I suspect much of this could also apply to Scotland, both Ireland teams, and (in particular) Wales. All are doing much better than usual in their qualifying campaigns (perhaps not so much Scotland now, but they were). But I do wonder also how much can be attributed to the expanded tournament. If you are generally regarded as the fourth or fifth best team in a qualifying group, there is a world of difference between coming first guarantees a spot and second gets you a play-off, and the current system of first or second guarantees a spot and third can get you a play-off. In the first case, your middling-to-poor teams have virtually no chance because even if one of the top 3 in the group has an off season (e.g. Holland this time round), they are still lucky to get second with virtually no chance to come first. Whereas in the present case, they have a very real chance of third and decent odds at coming second. So psychologically, rather than being beaten before they start they are suddenly well up for it. I don’t want to take anything away from Wales and Iceland’s footballing achievements, but I’m sure this is a part of it.
The Welsh have some really decent players now, Aaron Ramsey and Gareth Bale. So its not just the expanded format.
I will point out, that the WC 2010 final was the one time that Robben should have dived (when Puyol forgot it was not a Rugby match), but did not.
The Dutch are in the same boat as Spain. The Spanish played older players too long and did not permit the younger ones to get a shot. (They played Villa, Torres, Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Fabregas, Iniesta, Iker, Ramos in the last World Cup, all these guys played in 2006 WC as well). Guys like Robben, Van Persie, Sniejder have been playing since about 2004 as well, and unlike Spain, they don’t have the depth of talent to cover.
