Eat Pray Love (the movie): is Elizabeth Gilbert a [expletive] or is it just me?

[WhyNot]

Okay, ya got me. I thought I’d edited that out, on reflection. Mea culpa.

I’ve gone back and forth on it several times in my mind, I’ll admit that. I’ve certainly called her a cunt before (a couple of years ago in this thread, when my memory of the movie was more than a little bit fresher, in fact.) “Cunt” is a pretty ill-defined adjective in my mind - ranging from, well, a bit clueless and self-absorbed to all the dreadful other things you’ve called her. So obviously I should stay away from using it at all, not because it’s offensive, but just because even I’m not sure what I mean when I use it.

So to clarify, I agree she’s clueless and self-absorbed. I do not think she’s “a really horrible, shallow and callous person,” or a “selfish, callous manipulators who justify their behavior by attempting to appeal to others’ sympathy for their suffering,” or “a callous piece of shit,” or even, “an awful person” who “does hurtful things without remorse or reflection.”

Better?

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

So she’s a cunt, but not an awful person?

Sure, yeah.

[Slithy_Tove]

@steronz

And I’m sure Dan Brown is a really nice guy and probably a better-than-average writer, but when you become an international best seller and Oprah is pimping your book and then they make a goddamn movie about it, “Just occasionally obnoxious” doesn’t cut it. By virtue of her success, we expect greatness, and when greatness is not found there’s a terrible backlash.

So Oprah’s the real cunt here? (if we’re playing pin the merkin on the cunt)

BTW, Anyone remember we had much this same discussion about Sandra Tsing Loh?

[Dangerosa]

I don’t think she is a cunt - which is a word I don’t use to describe other women - or an awful person - I think she is very unsympathetic as a character in the film. Its possible she is more sympathetic in the book or as a real person.

[Crawlspace]

@even_sven

I guess I don’t see what is so “sef-indugent” about a good long trip.

You don’t see what’s self-indulgent about a long trip with a stated purpose of indulging herself in language, culture and food?

[even_sven]

@Crawlspace

You don’t see what’s self-indulgent about a long trip with a stated purpose of indulging herself in language, culture and food?

I don’t think it’s any more self-indulgent than hanging around your hometown working and meeting your buds for happy hour, catching up on Mad Men, and heading out to the Ren Faire on the weekend, or whatever it is that people do. Most single people don’t exactly live lives of service. At least Ms. Gilbert was trying to learn something and improve herself, however imperfectly. Beats spending your time writing YouTube comments or paying Wii Sports.

[Crawlspace]

@even_sven

I don’t think it’s any more self-indulgent than hanging around your hometown working and meeting your buds for happy hour, catching up on Mad Men, and heading out to the Ren Faire on the weekend, or whatever it is that people do.

Ah, so now it’s just that it’s no *more * self-indulgent. Luckily you’re still wrong. And it’s not a matter of thought or opinion. It is, by definition, more self-indulgent to ditch your obligations so you can do whatever you want whenever you want than it is to fulfill your obligations and indulge yourself in the remaining time. Honestly, in the grand scheme of what an adult is legally allowed to do, deciding to ditch work and your life so you can live carefree like a child on summer vacation is pretty near the top.

@even_sven

Most single people don’t exactly live lives of service.

Can you point to someone arguing they do? This really just sounds like a broad ad hominem to normalize her actions.

@even_sven

At least Ms. Gilbert was trying to learn something and improve herself, however imperfectly.

There’s little indication that that was the intent, less that that was the result, and every indication that she was an entitled cunt upset that life stopped giving her a 24 hour a day awe-gasm.

[bengangmo]

@even_sven

I guess I don’t see what is so “sef-indugent” about a good long trip. Sure, it’s not saving orphans or raising foster puppies, but few of use are doing that at home. Would it be less “self-indulgent” if she had stayed home while she worked through her demons? You can’t even say she wasn’t productive- she wrote a best selling memoir that spoke to millions.

Where I see self indulgence is also perhaps also a little bit of jealousy.

I don’t think its particularly “a struggle” or very “difficult” to go off and find oneself on some sort of oddeysey around the world and then write about it as a journey of self discovery -

Simply speaks to me of being a bit pretentious and spoiled.

I know of people that have achieved much - one that springs to mind is a General Manager I knew that took a two year sabbatical to manage a refugee camp for example - this is someone who I admire greatly, and would love to read his story.

I just don’t see what’s “special” or read worthy about some women who got bored with her life and did the journey of self discovery in a totally self indulgent, selfish and somewhat pretentious manner

[AK84]

@even_sven

. She says nothing about his job except that she was the breadwinner. It does seem the primary conflict is they had planned to settle down and have a family when she hit thirty, but when that date finally came she realized she REALLY did not want kids and did not want to settle down.

.

Which is a difficult to believe considering the actual mans career profile linked to earlier.

BTW, she does not want to settle down? geez, what a mature and capable adult.

[even_sven]

I just don’t get the contrast here.

“I got a divorce last year and fell into a bad rebound and some pretty serious depression. So, I’ve been keeping busy taking Italian lessons, doing lots of yoga, and eventually near the end of the year I started dating again.”
“Good on ya!”
“Yeah, I was hired to do so while traveling as part of my work as a travel writer.”
“In that case, you are a self-absorbed cunt.”

@AK84

BTW, she does not want to settle down? geez, what a mature and capable adult.

And I think we have got to the heart of the matter. Not wanting (or at least, not wanting in your 30s) the husband, the kids, and the material items makes you an immature and incapable adult. Or, it does so if you are a woman. I just don’t see the same words being used for men who enjoy bachelor life in their thirties.

[AK84]

Errr, yeah you do. All the time. The word used is “manchild”. And she was not single in her thirties. She had been married for about 8 years at the point. She had purchased a house. She had settled down . That is what is at issue here and shows her immaturity and general cuntiness. The shirking of responsibilities and obligations she had voluntarily assumed.

[shantih]

Thank you, WhyNot. That clears up my confusion. Why are books so often adapted into films that completely lose or at least blunt the point of the book? It seems so futile to me.

@Ulf_the_Unwashed

[bolding mine]
You’re both kidding, right? (No, you probably aren’t…)

“I won’t open any of that,” Gilbert does indeed say (IN THE BOOK–I haven;t seen the movie) with regard to why she left her husband, but read just a little further:

“…communications [he sent me] reminding me of what a criminal jerk I was.”

“He let me know that I was a liar and a traitor and he hated me and would never speak to me again.”

These really are not the remarks of somebody who isn’t making it personal. Or who is actually taking the high road.

Well. To me, those are the remarks of someone who went through a contentious divorce. All that I see there is that she’s saying that her soon-to-be-ex-husband was unhappy with her, his soon-to-be-ex-wife, which doesn’t seem all that extravagently awful. She’s not saying about him except that he was hurt and angry with her at the time they were getting divorced. Is that really so awful?

@Crawlspace

Ah, so now it’s just that it’s no *more * self-indulgent. Luckily you’re still wrong. And it’s not a matter of thought or opinion. It is, by definition, more self-indulgent to ditch your obligations so you can do whatever you want whenever you want than it is to fulfill your obligations and indulge yourself in the remaining time. Honestly, in the grand scheme of what an adult is legally allowed to do, deciding to ditch work and your life so you can live carefree like a child on summer vacation is pretty near the top.

What obligations? She’s a writer. She worked out an advance specifically to travel to three locations and write about her experiences. She was fulfilling her obligations by doing so.

[Justin_Bailey]

@shantih

Well. To me, those are the remarks of someone who went through a contentious divorce. All that I see there is that she’s saying that her soon-to-be-ex-husband was unhappy with her, his soon-to-be-ex-wife, which doesn’t seem all that extravagently awful. She’s not saying about him except that he was hurt and angry with her at the time they were getting divorced. Is that really so awful?

Yes, because when you’re the one solely at fault, people expect you to admit that fact.

[even_sven]

You know who is a real immature bint? That Bill Bryson fellow. What with ditching all his obligations to wander around like an overgrown Boy Scout.

[Justin_Bailey]

@even_sven

You know who is a real immature bint? That Bill Bryson fellow. What with ditching all his obligations to wander around like an overgrown Boy Scout.

As far as I’m aware, Bill Bryson has never been divorced, let alone left his wife for literally “no reason.”

Therefore, I assume any trips he takes are all done with her permission.

[even_sven]

Sorry, I meant to say Bill Bryson was self indulgent. Amiright?

How long should a divorcee wait before doing something enjoyable? She went on the trip a year after they were separated-- well after the relationship was good and truly over, and after the nitty gritty of the divorce was worked out. She didn’t leave until all the legalities were worked out, which was a long process. It seems like she actively did make sure her responsibilities to her ex husband were fulfilled.

IMHO, her biggest mistake was getting married in the first place, but it’s hard to tell how people are going to change. She seemed like she was happy with DINK life- she said they travelled together, shared a Manhattan apartment, worked exciting jobs and had their respective freedoms. But he wanted things to change…the house in the suburbs, the kids, the stable job, staying put, and she just didn’t want that. What can you do?

[Justin_Bailey]

@even_sven

IMHO, her biggest mistake was getting married in the first place, but it’s hard to tell how people are going to change. She seemed like she was happy with DINK life- she said they travelled together, shared a Manhattan apartment, worked exciting jobs and had their respective freedoms. But he wanted things to change…the house in the suburbs, the kids, the stable job, staying put, and she just didn’t want that. What can you do?

Admit that she’s the asshole and not blame him in a book she wrote?

Honestly, if the book didn’t include any mention of their divorce and the “reason” behind it, do you think anyone would be crapping on her life or her choices?

[even_sven]

@Justin_Bailey

Admit that she’s the asshole and not blame him in a book she wrote?

Honestly, if the book didn’t include any mention of their divorce and the “reason” behind it, do you think anyone would be crapping on her life or her choices?

She. Didn’t. Blame. Him. The only reason she gives is that she did not want to have kids, and did not want the life her marriage was heading for. She implies her husband was not an angel, but gives no details. She is equally hard on herself.

She said almost nothing about their marriage. She did talk about his behavior after the divorce, and related several things that he said to herwell after the marriage was over.

[Nom_de_Plume]

@even_sven

She. Didn’t. Blame. Him. The only reason she gives is that she did not want to have kids, and did not want the life her marriage was heading for. She implies her husband was not an angel, but gives no details. She is equally hard on herself.

And this was all in the book? I believe the OP made it pretty clear that the discussion was about the movie.

@pkbites

Watched the movie Eat Pray Love tonight. I did not read the book, nor will I read it even at gun point! So any references to the differences of the book/movie will be ignored.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

Okay, out of morbid curiosity, I went to check out what I could see from the online version of the book. Ultimately I don’t see much of anything that paints a very different picture from the movie depiction. I think the book actually serves to further illustrate her complete lack of perspective and empathy. Remarkably, I’ve ended up with a wall of text on the subject of just the few pages that I could see for free. I’m going to post this in several posts to make it somewhat digestible.

Let me restate that I do not personally have any problem with someone (man or woman, doesn’t matter, I’m not interested in hashing out any gender warfare here) coming to realize that they do not love the person that they are married to, and coming to believe that the best thing to do is end the relationship. Let me also say that I am very sensitive to social roles and social expectations, and that they can coerce people to follow life courses that might not particularly feel natural or entirely of their freewill and consent. From that perspective, I see why many people would respond positively to the story of someone coming to recognize that such expectations have forced them to make decisions they regret and wish to undo. I myself find that aspect of the story to be very compelling and potentially intriguing, if difficult to confront.

However, a person of any sort of decency will recognize that this is going to be very hard on the person they are leaving. It’s a profound rejection. As difficult as any unilateral termination of a relationship, the kind she is talking about here is a nuclear level rejection. And the Liz in the book shows not a single moment’s recognition of the profound hurt that she causes her husband. She writes about the entire experience with a terrible lack of perspective. She is extraordinarily unable to write anything about how her husband might have felt about it.

She describes having been together for eight years and married for six, having just bought a big house less than a year previously. She talks about their shared expectations and dreams of how their life would be. Over a matter of months, however, she decides that she no longer wants all of that. She starts to, in apparently equal parts, love and loath him. She describes him as an “albatross” as well as her partner. What she does not do is reflect on how hard the whole thing is on her husband. In fact, she explicitly says that she is not able to talk with him about what she is feeling.

From what she has written, Liz’ husband is nearly a decade into a relationship that, for all he knows, is solid and stable and filled with shared hopes and dreams. As far as he knows, they are happy having committed to a home and beginning to try to have children. Apparently, relatively suddenly, his wife starts becoming withdrawn, irritable, and physically sick. She spends time crying in the bathroom. What she does not do is attempt to explain to him what is going on. How could her ultimate decision to terminate the relationship end up being anything other than a devastating shock to him?