Like I said. No attempt at all to understand a perspective other than your own.
Out of curiosity, imagine that the CEO of Amazon, paying attention to the news, though, “You mean I’m heading up a company that sells a lot of Confederate flags? Man, fuck that, that’s a shitty way to make money, I don’t want to be involved in that.” Assuming it’s in his power to make that decision, is it okay with you if Bezos decides to have Amazon stop selling those flags because he thinks they’re gross and doesn’t want any part of it?
This question is based in the same fallacy that any white person makes when they say “You can’t accuse me of racism unless I admit to an explicitly conscious hatred based on race.”
The use of the flag in the show was the use of a racist symbol by people steeped in a racist culture without regard to the meaning of the symbol to millions of minorities.
The one thing that does not matter is whether they consciously meant to send a message of hate. They did it regardless of what they meant to do.
Oh, we understand. It’s time to stop humoring that bullshit with understanding.
Maybe it was. Hollywood was pretty racist back then and it’s still pretty racist now. I don’t recall any interracial dating on the show. I don’t recall any minority regulars on the show (although I only watched it haphazardly). But, given the time period, I’d say it’s a pretty good bet that if we went and watched every appearance of a minority on that show, we’d probably find a bunch of cringe-worthy portrayals.
You seem to have a default assumption that it wasn’t done with racist intent. Why should we make the same assumption, given Hollywood’s notoriously racist history?
I’m not allowed to scold them, but you’re allowed to scold me? Weird. Almost as if you think that you’re right.
You mean Hollywood?
Don’t you mean…
No. I can’t bring myself to make that joke. Even I have some standards!
Are you talking about yourself?
Intent is irrelevant? Yeesh. OK, well that doesn’t leave much to discuss then, does it?
Were the producers of DC Comics also sending a message of hatred?
Or the people who sold patches in the back of children’s comic books in the 70s?
The director of Animal House? Who put a Confederate flag on a dorm room wall?
The makers of children’s lunch boxes?
See, if you take all that together, you might have to consider the possibility that perceptions of the flag have changed over time, and what was regarded by most as a harmless symbol of rebelliousness or Southern pride back in the 70s has come to be associated more exclusively with hatred and racism.
And if you consider that, you might have to consider that people who grew up in the 70s are slow to let go of their former perception of that image, even in the face of mounting evidence and changing mores.
Or you could just assume that everybody who ever displayed a Confederate flag was racist. That would be another way to go.
As I said, I understand the other perspective fully, and have been arguing it to various Facebook friends who don’t want to let go of the flag.
Spoke - I think the point you’re missing is that the actions of eBay, Amazon and others are the way moral suasion works. Someone says, “No, I will not tolerate that way of thinking or its symbol,” and stands up for what they believe. That someone can be a corporation, institution or organization as well as an individual. Movements build as the idea goes from being held by individuals to being held by organizations and ultimately by governments. The fact that eBay and Amazon are major corporations with substantial influence makes it more important, not less important, that they take a stand for what they believe.
On the issue of Southern pride, I’m curious if you’ve asked anyone what exactly they are proud of, and why they feel that the Confederate flag is an appropriate symbol of that pride?
As I’ve said elsewhere (and will clarify here to avoid a massive misinterpretation), when you fly a confederate flag, assuming it’s not in a fictional story, there are three possible explanations:
- Ignoramus. You’re ignorant of the flag’s history and how many African Americans regard it, and mean no harm.
- White supremacist. You’re wanting to be part of the white supremacist movement that the flag has been associated with from its inception–from defending brutal slavery through perpetuating segregation and Jim Crow.
- Asshole. You’re aware of the flag’s history and association with white supremacy and its regard by many African Americans, and your desire to fly the flag means you don’t care enough about everything else; you’re fine with flying a symbol of white supremacy.
Now, you might be an ignoramus only in this area, and brilliantly erudite in all other areas of human knowledge. You might be a lovely humanitarian and feminist in all other areas, suffering only from white supremacy. You might volunteer at the soup kitchen every night and take in stray puppies, and only be an asshole as regards the flag. BUT IN REGARDS TO YOUR FLYING OF THE FLAG, you’re almost certainly in one of these categories.
As for your examples from the media? I’d be surprised if the Duke boys aren’t casually white supremacists, given their background. Animal House portrayed a bunch of ignorant assholes; that was the source of the movie’s humor. Jeb Stuart was a goddamned white supremacist traitor who killed Americans in order to perpetuate slavery; I don’t know if he was accurately portrayed as such as he drove his ghost tank around.
And yet you don’t see a problem with drawing a line between a fictional TV show and real life terrorism? If you don’t see the problem in that, then no, you don’t see the other side’s perspective. Because it’s really offensive to talk about a silly TV show in light of real tragedy.
The Confederate flag is really the only emblem that says (in the perspective of these folks) “I’m from the South! Woo hoo!” That was how it became the symbol of Southern rock in the 70s. (Worn by such notorious racists as Tom Petty.) What other symbol would you instantly recognize as conveying that message? (There’s a straight line for you…)
Do I really need to answer why someone would feel proud to be from the South?
Or it’s really annoying to you that you can’t argue honestly that the flag was intended as racist on that show. And if you concede that it wasn’t intended as racist on the show, you might have to concede that others had non-racist reasons for displaying it.
So you’d better try to shut down discussion of Dukes of Hazzard by mocking it as a silly show.
Aren’t you just adorable!
Do you think I think Hollywood isn’t racist?
Ah, ok, so you actually don’t care about the other sides perspective. You’ve completely ignored the points I made. If you actually care about the other sides perspective, then you actually have to respond to their points. I explained to you that I don’t have to concede it, because we have plenty of evidence that Hollywood at the time period was really racist. I don’t have to concede arbitrary assertions you make. You want to pony up some statements from the shows creators, I’ll take a look. But I know how to research media history, so you better have your ducks in a row.
Um, did you ever watch the show? It had a cigar-chomping evil guy dressed in a white suit and an two incompetent Keystone cops running around. It was intended as a silly show. If you think calling the Dukes of Hazzard “silly” is some kind of insult, then you’ve never actually watched the show. You don’t even know anything about the show you’re bringing up.:rolleyes:
But here’s the thing, if you think mocking a fictional TV show is even in the same universe as bringing it into a discussion about terrorism and murder and severe human rights abuses, then you aren’t treating both sides equally. In fact, you’re doing exactly what I said you were, which is treating the “Heritage” side with kid gloves while being dismissive of the other side.
It’s also pretty clear that you are bone-dead ignorant about the history of racism in Hollywood, which leads me to believe that you are bone-dead ignorant about the history of that flag and race relations in this country generally.
Sorry, people like you who trivialize murder and terrorism and can’t be bothered to pick up a history book have nothing useful to say on this topic.
I’m pretty sure you think damn near everybody is racist.
Maybe you should morally suade him about that.