Which is, of course, entirely beside the point. In fact, a distraction from the point, which was: “Did the makers of the show have racist intent?”
I’m not one to flaunt an academic pedigree, but let’s just say I might have read a history book or two. Maybe even more than you.
And I must have missed the post where I trivialized murder.
Or else you invented it in your head.
I did try.
Well, many of us have in the past attempted to persuade people about the flag, and yet it was still flying high. Now I’m pretty happy to see if shame works.
You owe us the same concession.
We do understand the opposing point of view.
We disagree with it vigorously, but you are in grievous factual error if you imagine that we don’t understand it.
I very much doubt that the makers of Dukes of Hazard were thinking, “Let’s put a Confederate flag on the car! That’ll really show the blacks what’s what!” I’m sure the question of how black people would feel about seeing that symbol was not even remotely a concern to them. In fact, I’d venture to say, “Who gives a shit about what black people think?” was a pretty common attitude in the '70s. Because people in the '70s were, on average, pretty fucking racist.
So was putting the flag on the car done with racist intent? No. Was it still racist? Yeah, I’d say it was pretty racist. Not Klan Rally racist, just, “White people are the default, and most everything in the country should cater to them” racist.
Sorry, not seeing a lot of understanding here. All I see is the assumption of racism, which is simply not an assumption you can correctly make about everyone who displays the flag.
Left Hand of Dorkness seems to have a grasp of things. I would only add that sometimes ignoramuses are nice, well-meaning people, who are susceptible to being led out of their ignorance if you don’t open the conversation by calling them a racist asshole.
Lol. Is this more of considering both sides? Pointing out that the show was produced in a racist system is completely on point.
Doubtful.
Already explained to you twice, which you’ve ignored. But I guess in your twisted world, ignoring an argument is considering the other side.
Dude, give it up. You made it abundantly clear what your intent is in this thread. And it’s to defend the flag while pretending to consider the other side.
Speaking of making things up:
So, while you make things up about other posters, you’re going to run around saying other people made stuff up.
I’m done. I don’t have to convince people like you. EBay and Amazon and Walmart a number of state and local governments have already been convinced. You and your ilk are being relegated to the trash heap of history where you belong.
Knock it off.
NOW!
EVERYONE, back off on any effort to make the discussion personal or to ascribe evil (or stupid) motives to one’s opponents.
[ /Moderating ]
You’re again making that same old mistake that you have to admit to being a racist person in your heart before you can be accused of racism. No, you don’t anyone can do or say something that has racist implications, including me. The question is when that’s pointed out to you, what do you do about it?
For too long, white people have been assuaging their own feelings by assuring themselves that they didn’t mean to be racist, so it’s so unfair to call out racism. And every time, this kind of tone-policing is lathered on. I have stopped feeling sorry for white folks who experience hurt feelings when something racist is pointed out.
That’s where you’re wrong. Making it all about your intent is something that you have to stop thinking is the key issue.
They were all serving commercial markets that had been steeped in revisionist history of the Confederacy and the flag. They were serving a racist market. Whether their intent was explicitly racist doesn’t matter.
Well, there you have an even more blatant instance. The history of the use of Confederate flags and the history of fraternities on college campuses—especially in the South, but not limited to it—is full of racism, often very raw and brutal racism. Animal House was participating in the whitewashing of all that, whether they knew they were doing it or not.
You have got it completely backwards. The Confederate Battle Flag became popular not because of nostalgia of the honorable south, but as part of a backlash against Civil Rights, Voting Rights, and integration. It was explicitly racist, and it was not adopted popularly in the South (or in the North, for that matter), until the 1950s or 1960s, as an explicitly racist symbol.
By the 1970s, there were plenty of folks trying to whitewash the meaning for popular consumption, the same way that the Civil War, the Confederacy, the Reconstruction, and post-Reconstruction eras had continuously been whitewashed.
Oh, just give them a little bit more time to get used to it. How often has that been heard over the decades?
You see it above … ignoramus, white supremacist, or asshole. I’ll willingly ad shameless capitalist to the list.
This is not a new conversation. It’s been going on my whole life, this whole “heritage” thing. The thing is there is no pan-Southern heritage—especially when it is explicitly connected to the Confederacy—apart from slavery and racism. There is no Southern qua Southern heritage to celebrate or revere that is benign or valuable.
I’m not saying that nothing good ever came from the South. I’m saying that whatever good that came from the South has nothing to do with “The South.” It has to do with particular people in particular communities in particular places. Oxford, Mississippi, is rightly justified in celebrating Faulker as one of their own. But that’s Oxford, Mississippi. It’s not “The South.” As I said in another thread, Faulkner has nothing to do with Key West or San Antonio.
The only thing that Oxford and Key West and San Antonio and New Orleans can claim in common as “Southern” is its brutal history of slavery and racism and treason.
Yes, absolutely. You gave one reason above, “because I admire Southern rock music and enjoy listening to it.” You could convey that sentiment very easily by wearing a…(hold on a minute while I check Wikipedia)…Lynyrd Skynyrd T-shirt, for example. I’m sure there are other reasons to be proud to be from the South that would lend themselves to more appropriate symbols.
You can even buy a T-shirt that says"Made in the South" or “I’m from the South!”
Because frankly, if you feel the need to display a Confederate flag, to me and a lot of other people, it’s going to look like you’re proud to be from the South because of the Civil War and all its baggage.
Except there has been marked progress in my lifetime. Note well all the conservative Republicans now taking down the flag or denouncing it.
You seem determined to disregard this evidence of a changing mindset.
I agree with his taxonomy, though I would add that if there’s a big enough stink, all cover for “but I didn’t know!” or “heritage, not hate” is blown.
This reminds me of the people arguing that gay pride parades hurt the cause of gay rights because of all those people who will just be turned off who could otherwise be swayed. The reason those flags are coming down now is that a bunch of us have expressed our feelings that it is a flag of slavery and hatred.
Ludicrous. The ties that bind Southern culture in a common heritage can mostly be traced back to the Jamestown colony, and the later influx of Ulster Scots. Traces of those connections can still be seen in the distribution of Southern accents.
As for the cultural elements that tie the region together, let’s see:
Southern cooking
barbecue
accents
jazz
country music
bluegrass
rockabilly
rock and roll
blues
OK, pretty much every American musical form was invented here
Love of storytelling
Military culture
Outdoorsmanship
Hospitality
And I could go on for a page or two. But you’ve read a lot of books, so I’m sure you know all this. There are plenty of things which connect Southerners other than the war.
I knew we’d won when they started denouncing it as “The Democrat Flag.”
All those things can be traced back to Jamestown, can they?
Not one of those things comes uniformly from or is applicable to every single place included within the boundaries of the former Confederacy while at the same time being applicable to no place outside those borders.
The only thing that does apply in that way is the Confederacy itself. That is the tie that binds.
You can find someone’s viewpoint horseshit, and still be factually wrong about the intended symbolism of their expression.
The part where “intent” is an excuse for acting like a racist is the part that’s horseshit.
I absolutely love the argument that the flag of a racist country is a symbol of racism. I absolutely love the argument that the flag of a slave-holding country is a symbol of slavery. And I absolutely love the argument that a flag of a white supremacist government is a symbol of white supremacy.
Now I’m just waiting for you Americans to apply a little logic and consistency to your argument.
You seem to have a little problem with your verb tenses there:
This sort of straw man claim is silly.
The argument is not that the flag is of a racist or slave-holding country; it is that the country in question was founded for the express purpose of promoting slavery.
Beyond that, the particular flag was specifically raised over a number of state capitols explicitly as a banner of racial segregation in opposition to efforts by the Federal government to reduce the effects of racial laws in those states.
Your claim is nonsense.