A woman claims Amazon discriminates against female drivers by not allowing sufficient bathroom breaks. Amazon says they give 2 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch, and their route programs identify public bathrooms. (I can identify a number of bathrooms in local parks and forest preserves that seem to get a pretty steady stream of delivery drivers.)
My question is, how does this policy affect women more than men? Personally, after drinking my coffee in the morning I could imagine needing to pee into a jar in the back of the truck, with nobody being any the wiser. The 2 women I discussed this with said that would be doable for them, despite their different plumbing. (Actually, if I had a job with limited bathroom access, I expect I would drink considerably less coffee in the morning.)
Please explain how I am misunderstanding what I suspect is the most pressing civil rights issue of the day.
Despite the fact that you could find two woman that could theoretically pee into a jar in the back of a truck, I would suspect that most women would find it difficult (if not extremely intrusive) to do the same. Aso, their route programs may identify public restrooms but “peeing on command and at specific intervals” is not something most people can do.
Anyone who’s spent much time around women knows that as a general rule, they need to pee more frequently than men. That’s an average, and there are of course exceptions.
There is also the issue, discussed in the recent “why is talking about menstruation taboo?” thread, that women of an appropriate age also need to use bathrooms as private spaces to deal with their menstruation & related products. Often on rather short notice.
All that makes it obvious that if left to her own devices, a typical woman would take more, and perhaps longer, bathroom breaks per workday than a man of the same general size, shape, and age.
Amazon’s delivery workforce is mostly young, but if it ever became a common job for retirement aged men, they’d have the same problem: needing to pee more often than corporate overlords would prefer.
The question then is what to do about it?
We’ve all seen long lines at women’s bathrooms at e.g. theaters or sporting events or airports where the mens’ rooms have significantly shorter lines. IIRC, some years ago there was some kerfuffle about architects designing big facilities like that with equal square footage of bathrooms which inevitably leads to differential crowding. Further, the final outcome was the architect’s trade association publishing a best practice to build larger women’s rooms with more total toilets & sinks than the men had. And with the EEOC’s explicit blessing for accommodating that real difference.
Assuming IIRC, and assuming the US government hasn’t completely lost its mind by the time this is heard, that suggests to me that the plaintiffs have a point.
The larger point is that Amazon is guilty of cruelly overmanaging their workforce by algorithm which ought to be illegal on its face. Women’s bathroom breaks are just the tip of a cruel iceberg of worker abuse.
I didn’t “manage to find 2 women who could theoretically figure out how to relieve themselves, I simply asked the only 2 women I spoke with this morning - my wife and my sister. I’m glad to learn that those closest to me are so supremely gifted in this area.
If that is the case (which it may very well be), I would expect some more solid support than a “general rule.” I had not thought of menstruation issues. They were not mentioned in the articles I saw.
This is only an abstract, and low on specifics, but it does seem to suggest women pee more frequently than men. Not clear to me how much more frequently or how often.
I agree that Amazon’s labor practices are horrendous (tho I know at least 2 young women who think their jobs are GREAT! Must be more of the superior women I surround myself with! ;)) But I’m not sure this specific claim is the basis for challenging all aspects of Amazon’s labor policies.
I haven’t tried to keep any count, but I’d guess that women make up at least 1/3 and maybe more than 1/2 of Amazon/delivery drivers I see. Wonder how all those exceptional women are able to do it?
I remember an episode of Undercover Bosses where the head of Waste Management was supposedly shocked to find out that the women garbage truck drivers had difficulty with restroom breaks.
If they were able to do it, there wouldn’t be a lawsuit. Just because women put up with bullshit out of necessity doesn’t mean the bullshit doesn’t exist.
Do we have to pick off on the most important ones (to you) or can we solve some of the other ones down on your list first? I don’t give a fuck what a man (me included) thinks about this. We aren’t in a position to speculate.
I asked them both in the context of this situation - in the back of an Amazon van. Neither thought it a big deal. And neither thought a need for extra pee breaks a disparate impact matter. I guess my troglodytic views are reinforced by the troglodytic females closest to me.
I do not know what specific production requirements Amazon places on their drivers. (I DO have some knowledge of and firmly believe that their requirements in their fulfillment centers are inhumane. But, again, I know some folk who enjoy their Amazon employment.) My vague idea was that efficiency primarily impacted the driver’s income - they wanted to deliver as many packages as possible because they got paid per item delivered. I may well be mistaken. No idea what impact would result if a driver stopped in at a McD’s/gas station for an extra bathroom break or two per day.
I speak with vocational experts regularly in my job. They generally testify that standard work allows 2 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch. Most say that up to 10-15% off task is permitted, and that most employers would allow 1 additional 5 minute bathroom break in the morning and afternoon. Are people suggesting that women need more than that, and that any job not offering more discriminates against women?
No. They are paid an amount per route or hourly. Per package obviously makes no sense because an urban route and a very rural route would take the same amount of time with a vastly different number of packages.
I’m wondering why you’re upset about this. They’ll either win and get a better policy (perhaps benefiting men as well) or they’ll lose and Amazon will continue to be extremely profitable
Allow me to say as a woman who’s used several of these FUDs (female urinary devices) that they’re often only somewhat effective, can’t be used while seated, and provide nothing in the way of menstruation management.
ETA, at the risk of TMI: I had an extremely heavy flow and for several days each month needed to change menstrual supplies about every 2 hours. If I didn’t, my clothes, body, and hands would quickly evoke a violent murder scene.
However, it’s not at all difficult for most if not all of us women to pee in a fairly wide-mouthed jar. It does take a very minimal amount of practice to be confident with the process, but once mastered it’s not an issue at all.
TBH I don’t think anyone, male or female, should be forced to pee in a receptacle in their work truck, on any job.
I have a friend who’s son works for Spectrum, going to different jobs in a work van. He says that he and his team often pee in a bottle. I asked him what they do with the bottle when it’s full. He told me they often dump it in a customer’s driveway.
There has been a bottle full of yellow liquid stuck on the bridge over the creek near my house. Usually I pick up trash in my neighborhood but…no thanks. I just walk past the pee bottle every day.
I think ALL Amazon workers should be against this policy if it requires ANYONE to pee in a bottle. The fact that female employees are bringing it up just shows that it sucks worse for women.
I agree. Nothing I read suggested such a requirement.
As I acknowledged upthread, I did not consider non-urinary bathroom needs, as they were not mentioned in the complaint. Such a need every 2 hours could conceivably be accommodated with the morning, lunch, and afternoon breaks.
Still not sure how often workers - male or female - ought to be expected to use the bathroom (to pee/poop).
This says 6-7 times a day. I drink coffee in the morning, and A LOT of water all day. I’m sure I am well over than number.
Even if we grant that this disparately affects female drivers, what should Amazon do about it? It’s inherent to the job of driving a delivery truck that you don’t usually have easy access to a bathroom.
