I guess they’re assuming the perp said whatever he said (something like, “If you say anything, I’ll kill your sister” ?) to Elizabeth and the little sister thought he was saying it to her.
I dunno. Changing stories now makes everything seem so suspicious.
RickJay, I think she looks 14. Have you been to a middle school recently? There are girls there that look 17 or 18 or even 21.
She’s not slutty-looking, like some girls I’ve seen. My daughters are 12 and 13, both about to turn 14 and 13, and you’d be amazed at what some of the girls in their school look like. At my older daughter’s Eighth-Grade graduation last week, my husband leaned over and asked if some of the girls were majoring in Hooking. :eek:
Elizabeth Smart looks NOTHING like some of those girls.
I’m not questioning your friend’s situation; it’s a wonderful thing that it had such a happy ending. I just don’t think this particular case is going to end up like that. I’m trying to find some information now (I just wanted to respond in the interim) about the odds of recovering a live child abductee when the abductor is a stranger. My understanding is that with every day the child remains missing, with no contact from the abductor, the odds of that child still being alive or even recovered are reduced. If anyone else knows a direction to point me in, let me know.
Yeah, not fair. I don’t have any theories on this but I do have an opinion (as usual). I actually live in Utah, so I guess that makes me have some authority about the goings on and the politics of this place.
I read in the paper about a similar case to this, I think it was a few weeks ago. A girl was abducted in almost the same way, her dead body was found eventually.
The thing that really boters me is that this was hardly even mentioned at all and people can’t stop talking about Elizabeth Smart. Also, nobody put up posters, and no volunteers came up, unlike in the Smart case in which they had more help than they needed! And also I heard the governor of Salt Lake is footing the bill for the reward!
It all boils down to this. Elizabeth Smart was white, LDS, wealthy, and lived on the “East Side” and this other girl was Latino, non-LDS, poor, and lived on the “West Side” -----get it?
This is the way the cookie crumbles here in utah and how the politics work. I’m in no way saying that I don’t wish the best for her and her family, but I am saying that she not more important than other children who are abducted, and I’m sure there have been many since. I also don’t think that the tax dollars of Utahns (including the poor) should have to pay for the reward just because the story is popular!:mad:
I’ll tell you why this case is getting so much attention:
THE MISSING PERSON IS WHITE.
Plain and simple and pretty damn racist, but that’s the way it is.
There was an article in the NYT’s last week, on pg A10-12 or so about a BLACK COUPLE whose daughter had been missing for over 3 months and their story wasn’t plastered all over the fucking TV, magazines, radio, newspapers, etc.
Why?
Because the family involved was black.
This has been going on for a long, long, long, long, long time.
If only James Chaney had been killed and not two other white men as well, there never would have been the uproar that there was back in the summer of 1964 in Mississippi.
Re the Elizabeth Smart case: I heard that the FBI is now offering a $25,000 reward. Does this mean that the FBI is using it’s own money? If so, has the bureau ever done this for anyone else? I’ve heard that it is the FBI’s policy to not supply ransom money–that is the family’s responsibility. Isn’t this kind of the same thing? Also, I agree that the news media has glommed onto this story because Elizabeth is white. I live near Milwaukee, where a little girl named Alexis Patterson disappeared. Little Alexis is African-American. Granted, she was not taken from her home, but even so, she has received substantially less media coverage than Elizabeth Smart. Alexis’ parents appeared on CNN only after they had contacted the network to complain about the lack of national media coverage, but the story did not have legs.
Yes, she was white, but there are other white girls missing, too. I think what made this unusual is a combination of the bizarre circumstances and the lack of “blockbuster” stories lately.
To have a person enter your home, while you are still home, and take your child right out from under your nose, in front of other people, well, that’s pretty damn bizarre. As bizarre as the Klaus kidnapping, which also got considerable coverage.
I really don’t think it had to do with race in this circumstance. Remember the little kid (Arbogast?) who was bitten by a shark last year? I don’t think the media cared about his color/sex/age as much as they cared about the unusual circumstances. It made a good story. Ditto with the San Francisco dog maulings.
Reminds me of the whole JonBenet thing. Right after it happened, a little black girl was mysteriously killed in an apartment building. There was small but vocal group of people who were outraged by the lack of coverage while Jon Benet’s case was being beaten over our heads every night.
School violence is another example. If a white suburban kid shows up to school and mows down people, they get a whole hour on 20/20 and everyone asks, “What’s wrong with our children?” When a black kid kills at school, it doesn’t even make top story for the six o’clock news.
These disparities in meda attention are caused by the assumption that bad things aren’t supposed to happen to wealthy, “All-American” people. And when they do, we all should be alarmed.
Actually, I meant she looks younger than 14. Alas, she has doubtlessly been raped and murdered by now.
As to her 9-year-old sister, I’ll tell you what; take any 9-year-old and have big, scary cops grill her for a few weeks and watch the story change from day to day. The poor little girl can probably barely remember what actually happened by now.
Well, I honestly feel her parent’s are not involved. Mainly, because they have cooperated with the authorities and taken lie-detector tests. John Walsh, of “America’s Most Wanted” fame once stated that he felt that Jon Benet’s parents were involved because they refused to take lie detector tests. His son was adducted and slain, he’s been through the experience and he stated that the FIRST thing you do as a parent is throw the suspicion off yourself by taking the tests, by cooperating, etc. etc. Then, the police can concentrate on other suspects.
Now, it IS mondo weird that this kid could be taken in her own home. But, not impossible! Maybe he WAS waiting in the garage, maybe he chloroformed her on the way out and that’s why she didn’t make any noise. Who knows? But, you’d be surprised how quickly people can take things. I’ve experienced it myself with inanimate objects and you’re flabbergasted. Maybe it’s easier to take a kid than one would think. In the security of your own home, why would you even suspect something like that was happening? Lots of weirdos out there - after Jeffrey Dahmer, nothing surprises me any longer.
Well, I honestly feel her parent’s are not involved. Mainly, because they have cooperated with the authorities and taken lie-detector tests. John Walsh, of “America’s Most Wanted” fame once stated that he felt that Jon Benet’s parents were involved because they refused to take lie detector tests. His son was adducted and slain, he’s been through the experience and he stated that the FIRST thing you do as a parent is throw the suspicion off yourself by taking the tests, by cooperating, etc. etc. Then, the police can concentrate on other suspects.
Now, it IS mondo weird that this kid could be taken in her own home. But, not impossible! Maybe he WAS waiting in the garage, maybe he chloroformed her on the way out and that’s why she didn’t make any noise. Who knows? But, you’d be surprised how quickly people can take things. I’ve experienced it myself with inanimate objects and you’re flabbergasted. Maybe it’s easier to take a kid than one would think. In the security of your own home, why would you even suspect something like that was happening? Lots of weirdos out there - after Jeffrey Dahmer, nothing surprises me any longer.
Regardless of whether this is an issue of race, should the FBI or the government of Utah have to foot the bill for the reward money just because of a media frenzy? Her family obviously has the cash, let them pay for it, just like countless other families have. Oh, and I think it is a combo of things, not just race (see my above post).
It is about race, but not necessarily for nefarious, intentionally racist reasons. The networks/newspapers don’t have a racist agenda of enforcing some idea that white girls are more important than black girls. It’s just marketing response.
Most of their audience is white, so stories that resonate with whites have more equity. Same reason Hollywood casts more white actors. Not about racism, they’re just following their consumer research studies. Suppose CNN puts links to two simultaneous abduction cases on their site. Each link has a picture of the abducted girl, one black one white. The white one will get more clicks, so it stays up longer. Missing girl gets more clicks than missing boy. Missing cute kid gets more clicks than missing ugly kid. Missing child of celebrity parents gets a million clicks. Missing non-American child gets five. After years of similar results, programming executives know instintively that stories are worth more if they involve whites, wealth, celebrities, and good-looking people.
Yes, I know it would be good if news sources obeyed some higher calling to social progress instead of the laws of capitalism, but then again we support it. I haven’t seen the SDMB thread about the missing black girl. And I’m probably not gonna post one, either.
As for Elizabeth Smart, I wish some retired cop on Larry King would just come out and admit she’s probably dead. I don’t know the stats on this, but the rate of safe return for non-relative minor abductions must be very very low. There are only four reasons for child abduction that I can think of: Custody, Ransom, Revenge, and Rape.
Custody and ransom are out, revenge is rare and if that were the case the abductor would have taken the younger girl. It’s a lot easier to control a 9-year old than a 14-year old. The only reason to go for the teenager is because she’s the one that…well, you know.
Unless it’s a hoax (staged runaway), its over. But boy would I love to be wrong.
I live in Utah. I am not LDS. I am very familiar with the LDS Church. Most of my neighbors, co-workers, and even family members are LDS. My office is within a couple of footsteps from Church Headquarters.
It is my personal opinion that the LDS people, as a whole, are one of the most compassionate, kind, and generous group of people you will ever find. Although I respect their right to follow their choice of religion, it is beyond my comprehension how or why they believe some of the things they believe. I will, and do, debate the merits of the church IRL, but I will not, and have not participated in this debate or discussion on the SDMB. I make it a point to steer far and wide from any thread that pertains to Mormons.
I’m making the exception this time.
You are thinking of the Mark Hofmann bombing in Salt Lake City in 1985, although your implication that the LDS Church protected themselves through “malicious tactics” is absolutely false. The LDS Church was a victim of Hofmann’s fraud and scams. Hofmann, not the LDS Church, is the murderer.
If anything, the only thing the church was guilty of was being gullible and too trusting of someone they believed to be one of their own. As most organizations, they gave their support to a member they felt was innocent and when they later learned the truth about Hofmann then made all attempts to save face in their embarrassment. They also tried to protect their interest in what could have been damaging information regarding the history of the church.
This is hardly protecting themselves through malicious tactics.
I am not claiming that this other case did not happened, I have been very busy and usually taking off out of town for the weekends and haven’t watched or read the news every single day. However, I do find it highly suspicious that I too live in Utah and I have heard absolutely zilch as far as another girl “abducted in almost the same way” and that her “dead body was found eventually”. Nothing.
I have never heard that the “governor of Salt Lake” is footing the bill (do you mean the Governor of Utah or the Mayor or Salt Lake City?), in fact, unless he contributed his own money to the award as a private citizen, I have yet to find anything that shows this to be true.
AFAIK, the FBI and most local police departments have special funds that are set aside as reward money for a variety of cases not exclusive to kidnapping. Have you seen the wanted posters in the Post Office?
I would very much like a cite showing (1) news reports of a Latino girl kidnapped from her home and murdered and that no posters were put up and no volunteers helped look for her and (2) that the Governor (or Mayor - not sure which one you meant) is footing the bill for the reward.
BTW, the Smart family needed ALL the help that showed up (and still shows up). It was never “more than they needed”.
You will notice that the reward money being offered for Elizabeth is the standard $25,000 from the police and FBI but the balance of the $250,000 was donated by family, friends, and community. Nothing implies that the Governor nor Mayor is “footing the bill”.
“A $250,000 reward created by family, friends and community is being offered for information leading Elizabeth’s safe return.”
From:
*"A $250,000 reward created by family, friends and community is being offered for the safe return of 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart, who was taken from her home at gunpoint early Wednesday morning on June 5th in the Federal Heights area.
The Salt Lake City Sheriffs Office and the FBI are offering a $25,000 reward for information that will lead police to the location of Elizabeth Smart, or Information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person or persons responsible for Elizabeth Smarts disappearance."*
Well, it took a whole month, but I found a cite for my previous post in which I claimed that the chances of returning a child safely home decrease dramatically depending on the length of time that child remains with the abductor. From http://www.missingkids.com, in a section called “Statistics and Commonly Asked Questions”:
Well, it took a whole month, but I found a cite for my previous post in which I claimed that the chances of returning a child safely home decrease dramatically depending on the length of time that child remains with the abductor. From http://www.missingkids.com, in a section called “Statistics and Commonly Asked Questions”:
EXACTLY! Nobody heard about it. I was mistaken in my post on one thing, this happened over a year ago. I could not find any information on this, because I don’t have the girl’s name, as it was not plastered all over the news. I do have this editorial that refers to it. http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2002/edit-2002-06-20.cfm
I had not read this article until I was given my little homework assignment from you, but it refers to the exact case. I did not know before where the girl’s body was found but it was in the Jordan River. Sad. She was taken from her bedroom. I think it also refers to the miniscule volunteer effort, if I’m not mistaken.
All of the things I spoke of in my post were read in the Salt Lake City weekly, a local paper, unowned by the LDS church. They have chosen not to devote too much time to the case, seeing as so much else is out there but I did find this article which answers a lot of questions brought about in this forum. I think it is a recent one, it might even be from this week. http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2002/feat_2002-07-04.cfm
This is a really excellent article! It deals with all of the issues we have spoken about, including how race and class fit in. It doesn’t speak of the girl I spoke of, but compares the case of Alexis Patterson in Wisconsin, which I think was mentioned by someone else. I would reccommend that all who are following this discussion read it. Here it is again if that one won’t work http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2002/feat_2002-07-04.cfm
Diane, perhaps you may not have heard about all of this because you are so busy or are away, but I pay a lot of attention to current evens and I am absolutely sick of it. I am offended that you think that what I have said is not validated. I merely reported on things I heard in the news or read in the paper, which you might not pay so much attention to. It especially makes me think that you pay no attention to such media since you say that it has not been blown out of proportion. They were breaking in with “special reports” on other news programs! I made sure not to tout it as ultimate fact since I was going from memory (hence the “I heard”), but they were all legitimate sources. Since these were things I read months ago I do not have cites. Of course the article mentioned above is one I had not read until today, but it refers to a lot of what I had mentioned. Other things I found were only small bits with mere mentions of this young girl.
In saying the “government” I meant the mayor of Salt Lake, Rocky Anderson. I guess he is no longer “footing the bill” he offered up the first 10,000 during a press conference, you can find this information anywhere. The rest must have accumulated after that. I had no idea it had risen as high as it has. I stopped watching the news this month because of all the hype. As for the amount of volunteers, I was still watching the news that whole first week, and they spoke of them turning people away, and telling them to just go home and look at thier own property. They also spoke of food donations that the organisers were getting the volunteers to take home with them by the box-full because there was too much.
My main point was not to say that they don’t deserve all this help, but that they don’t deserve it more than anyone else!
I have no theories as to what happened but I think there is a LOT that they are keeping quiet. I suspect, weirdness/sicko wise, this is on the Jon Benet level.
Snoopy, I don’t see anything particularly mysterious about this. The kid was spirited away by an older man. You can hardly blame the family for keeping quiet.