Engineers/Mechanically Employed Dopers: Would this have been useful? Plus: Ethics

In My Humble Opinion
1

(See final paragraph for the ethics question.)

(I never know whether these sorts of OPs should go in IMHO or MPSIMS. If the ethics thing gets heated, maybe even GD. Mods, do as thou wilt.)

My son is currently exploring new high school options. His current school is one of the worst schools in the Chicago Public School system.

We’re looking at DeVry’s Advantage Academy, where he could go after his sophomore year (this year) and finish out both his high school diploma *and *get an A.S. degree - all in two years and a summer. Problem is, the two A.S. options are Network Systems Administration or Web Graphic Design. Neither of those are really what he wants to do with his life.

What he wants to do is still somewhat nebulous, but something engineering, mechanical, designing and putting things togetherish. Sorry that’s vague, but he’s only 16, and doesn’t exactly know what’s out there yet.

I guess I’m trying to decide if this program is a good idea or not. The school is academically superior to his current school, no question, and a safer (physically and emotionally) school environment. And I like the idea of his getting an A.S. (for FREE!) when he’s 18, in a tightly monitored environment like this hybrid program. But is there any way in which these classes could be *detrimental *to his later studies in engineering/mechanic/et al? I suppose if he never uses this A.S. but instead starts as a Freshman in College at 18, he’d be in exactly the same spot as every other high school graduate. And if by chance he does end up liking Networking or Web Graphic Design, he’ll have the starter degree for that. And DeVry has a reciprocal agreement whereby he can enter most of our state’s 4 year colleges as a Junior, although I’d expect Engineering programs to require much more undergrad math than he’ll get in this.

Plus, a bonus ethical question: is it ethically okay for us to use this specialized program as a safe haven high school when his seat there (assuming he gets in) might be bumping some poor kid who really *does *want to be a Network Systems Administrator when she grows up?

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I have NEVER heard of anything good about DeVry. Ever. I hang out with engineers, and one of the phrases, when talking about a clueless worker, is “Typical DeVry graduate”. Ordinarily, I would say to avoid DeVry at all costs, as one will be branded a DeVry graduate, and this will be detrimental to one’s employment opportunities.

However, if he’ll get a HS diploma, and plans to go on to a real college, and it’s safer for him there…then this might be a good option for him.

Ethically, I think that you have to make sure of your own safety first. Yeah, it’s a pity that he might bump someone who really wants to be an NSA. However, I don’t think that we really have a right to expect that we’ll be able to get into the field we really want. Most of us have to just take what’s out there.

3

I’m pretty negative about DeVry, although I have one good friend who is a very successful independent programmer, and is one of the smartest guys I know, and he is a DeVry graduate. He worked for Motorola before going out on his own.

4

I have never, ever heard anything good about DeVry. I am not an engineer or anything, but I used to date a guy that went to DeVry to become a mechanic and his degree ended up being detrimental to him because employers didn’t want to hire people from DeVry. Could your son buckle down and study for his GED and then go to community college next year instead? That would get him out of the unsafe environment and give him a chance to do the basics and find out what really does appeal to him.

5

My teacher in trade school told us that when he was hiring people, resumes that said Devry went directly int the trash. I’m sure it’s possible to get a good education there, but their reputation is that anyone who faithfully pays tuition gets a degree.

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My general feeling is that sixteen year olds who really do know what they want to be when they grow up and hang onto that for the next ten years are thin enough on the ground that you needn’t feel too guilty about taking away someonne else’s opportunities just to give your son a better education.

I’ll let other people answer the other questions.

7

I dunno anything about DeVry, though I can say for sure that neither Network Admin nor Graphic Design is going to have much of anything to do with engineering.

Have you considered home schooling?

8

As an engineer myself…

What area are you in? Most community colleges have similar high school advance start programs, even just one-off classes so that you can start earning college level credits and let him find himself and get his feet wet. Credits from a CC will almost always be transferable nearly anywhere without having to commit to a whole degree program, while Devry’s won’t necessarily be. Many will also be cheaper than DeVry.

You would be far better off doing this. I’ll third the reputation hit. I don’t know good or bad about Devry personally, but their reputation is terrible and you will get your resume auto-trashcanned by reviewers.

I went the community college AA route, and transfered to a university, and it worked great.

9

I’m also an engineer. Chemical. I also worked as a course advisor for UW-Madison for a year as an undergrad.

I will echo the sentiments expressed so far in this thread in saying that DeVry has a pretty low reputation. Many employers / programs don’t consider DeVry a proper engineering programming. Looking at DeVry’s own webpage - the ABET accredited degrees are all kind of dubious:

* Baccalaureate Biomedical Engineering Technology (BMET): Decatur/Alpharetta, Federal Way, Kansas City, Northern California (Fremont), Phoenix
* Baccalaureate Computer Engineering Technology (CET): Addison (Tinley Park), Arlington, Chicago, Columbus, Decatur/Alpharetta, Federal Way, Ft. Washington, Houston, Irving, Kansas City, Long Island City, Northern California (Fremont), Orlando, Phoenix, South Florida (Miramar), Southern California (Long Beach, Pomona, Sherman Oaks), Westminster
* Baccalaureate Electronics Engineering Technology (EET): Addison (Tinley Park), Arlington, Chicago, Columbus, Decatur/Alpharetta, Federal Way, Ft. Washington, Houston, Irving, Kansas City, Long Island City, North Brunswick, Northern California (Fremont, Sacramento), Orlando, Phoenix, South Florida (Miramar), Southern California (Long Beach, Pomona, Sherman Oaks), Westminster
* Associate EET: North Brunswick (program not available for enrollment by new students)

Meh.

Personally, I would advise your son to max his grades at his current high school. Also get tutoring to ace the SAT/ACT. Beyond that, math tutoring would be really helpful.

At University - the way it worked, at least at my University, was this: students were admitted into the general university. They had to apply after their first or second year into the college of Engineering. The criteria for acceptance:

  1. The courses they took. Math/Science courses were pretty much required for any hope of acceptance. In my day (about six years ago) the college required completion of some calculus (one or two semesters), general physics (one or two semesters) and general chemistry (one semester)

  2. Grades in those courses. A or B average. B was pushing it for the more popular programs.

  3. Overall GPA.

In my experience, what tripped up most hopeful engineers was the math. AP Courses at a lot of high schools in the nation are a sham. And I say this having gone in with AP credit for two semesters of college level calc.

For example - a very typical experience was this: Students came in with AP credit for a semester of calculus. Student would then enter Calculus II. Student would fall flat on her/his face because their foundation in Calc I was based on weak HS courses. Student struggled mightily to overcome a bad grade; some dropped out of the engineering program. The rigor of university level calculus is significantly higher than most AP calculus classes require. And most engineering programs require at least two semesters in calculus. So I repeat my recommendation for good math tutoring.

10

Possibly, and we’re looking into it, but I don’t think he’s got the emotional maturity for college yet - even community college. He still needs someone breathing down his neck pretty closely to do a lick of work.

Yes, and it may come to that. My concerns there are time and ability. There’s a chance (please, Og, let there be a chance!) that I’ll be starting Nursing School in the fall and I’ll not be home to do the homeschooling. And, see above re: he needs someone to ride herd on him still. But it’s just barely possible that my goddaughters will be returning to homeschooling after a yearlong experiment with public high school, and we might be able to homeschool them all together. They’ve been homeschooling since elementary age, so I’d feel so much more confident working with them and their mother, jumping in at a high school level like this.

But it’s going to be a hard sell to my husband if we do that. He’s a college educator, and his opinion is that homeschooling starting junior year is going to look way too much like dropping out of high school for any decent college to consider him.

We’re on the North Side, in Truman’s residence area. They have a “middle college”, true, but it’s just as bad as his high school. I go to Truman myself, and I avoid that corner of the building when the high schoolers are in - they’re pretty close to out of control all the time. It’s a “last chance” school for violent offenders, among others. Not a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

Well, it’s hard to get cheaper than free. It’s a free program in association with the CPS schools. I’ll admit, that’s a very attractive part of this - if he can get Comp, Psych, College Algebra and Trig all for free and during the same time period he’d be going to high school anyhow, that’s a good head start on any college program, and over $2000 even at community college prices. And DeVry is accredited by North Central, so the individual credits will transfer to any other accredited school, even if the degree is useless for a career.

Yeah. If that’s the case, then he’s already sunk, as I was afraid of. He’ll have to reconcile himself to something outside Engineering. Even if he pulls an A for the second semester, the best his final grade in Geometry will be is a high C or low B, because chose not to do any work first semester. (Which makes me so frustrated, because it’s not that he doesn’t get it, just that he didn’t *do *it…but that’s another rant for another thread.)

Thanks for you input, everyone. Of course, it wasn’t what I *wanted *to hear, but it’s good to know what we’re getting into. I’ll share this thread with him and let him know that, if this is what he chooses to do, at the very least he’ll have to commit himself to further college education somewhere else so he can get a better alma mater on his resume.

11

I think you might be misunderstanding me,

when I talk about grades in courses, I mean at the college level.

I can’t speak for every university, but at mine - they looked far more charitably on students with marginal HS experiences that got As and Bs in college level courses - even algebra - than they did on students that came in with great high school grades but bombed in the Uni level courses.

I don’t want to dissuade you or your son from pursuing engineering, it’s a great field. And like I said - first came admission to the University, general. After a year or two, THEN they applied to the college of engineering.

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AH! Yes, I did misunderstand. That’s good to know, thanks for correcting me.

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To speak further - there were lots of people with me in chemical engineering that didn’t have great HS grades. The ones who got to Uni and buckled down did just fine. On the flip side, I know lots of people who had great HS grades but ended up failing out of engineering in college.

I guess what I was trying to say - have your son focus on getting into a school. Then focus on getting into an engineering program.

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Typically, an engineering major starts with Calculus/Calc II as a freshmen. “College Algebra” and “College Trig” aren’t going to really count for anything (by that point, you should have already taken Algebra, Trig, pre-calc, and hopefully AP Calculus in High School) other than elective credits(maybe), although it might look better on your initial application.

If your son is mechanical-engineering inclined, make sure he’s on a track to take calculus, physics, and drafting before graduating H.S.

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His current plan does include Physics, but the school only goes up to Precalc, which he is lined up to take senior year. (The school he’s in now, I mean.) So calculus will have to wait until college no matter which option we choose; it’s just not available at the high school level around here. I suppose some private schools might offer it, but we can’t afford that. Sounds like he will very likely have to take an additional year of courses (probably at a community college) before really being prepared for an Engineering program. The price of the Chicago Public School system, I guess.

The exception that I can find is the Chicago Mathematics and Science Academy, where we are applying for the third year in a row. They do have AP Calculus. Their admission is by lottery, and so far we’ve just not been lucky enough to get in. Maybe this year will be the one!

16

I actually don’t think this sounds like a bad plan. I don’t think the DeVry program will look any worse than a H.S. degree from a H.S. known to be troubled. Some of the bad reputation of DeVry is due to a garbage in (unqualified, unmotivated students) garbage out principle. Your son is who he is, and can probably make as much or more of what he learns there than he would at a bad H.S. Don’t believe the hype that he will walk out of it ready for a great paying, secure F-T job, but who does walk out of H.S with that?

Also, with the NSA skills (I am less convinced about the Web Graphic Design) he will be well-positioned to get a good on-campus job. Most H.S. grads just don’t have that level of any kind of work-related skill. And a F-T or P-T permanent position at a university often comes with tuition benefits.

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WhyNot, if your son were to transfer to the DeVry school, do you think that he would buckle down and improve his grades? In other words, are the bad grades due strickly to lack of trying, or is his current school/friends/atmosphere a part of the problem?

I agree that DeVry doesn’t have a great reputation (at least post HS. I don’t know anything at all about this program). But if switching schools got/let him improve his grades, that would go farther to getting him into a college program he wants, over staying where he is with bad grades.

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He doesn’t have any friends at school; all his friends go to different schools. He’s made fun of whenever he gets a good grade at his current school, and he’s been physically threatened at least half a dozen times this year and struck once that I know of (and I suspect more that I don’t).

I can’t guarantee that the environment at DeVry will be any better, but I don’t see how it could be worse. And I can’t guarantee that he’ll buckle down and improve his grades, either, but again, I don’t see how they could be much worse.

19

Update:

After considering our other options (staying at Sullivan and, umm…that’s it, really), talking over the pitfalls of a DeVry degree and agreeing that he won’t apply to one of their BS programs when he’s done with high school, he applied for the DeVry Advantage Academy and he got in. He’s very excited about it, and extremely relieved to be leaving Sullivan. They didn’t have enough qualified applicants to do a lottery this year, so I’m not even concerned on the ethics issue at this point. Everyone who wanted to get in and met the requirements did get in.

After another end-of-year at Sullivan, I’m so disgusted that I think literally anywhere would be better than there. One of the tests in Spanish class was a Q&A on the movie Selena (which isn’t even in Spanish) which included true false questions on Selena’s brother’s names.:rolleyes: Almost all his classes started watching time waster movies a month before the end of school. They finished finals last Wednesday, and they’re still required to go to school all next week. Your tax dollars at work, ladies and gentlemen. Short of actual school shootings, I can’t imagine how DeVry could be worse, socially or academically.

Oh, and he kicked his butt into gear and worked his grades up in an effort to meet the DeVry requirements, so it’s been motivating for him already. Good kid!

20

This is kinda tangential, but one thing that people looking into engineering need to be aware of is that engineering and engineering technology degrees are not the same, and that there are a number of jobs that specifically require an engineering degree. When it comes time to look for colleges, keep an eye out for which degree is actually offered.

One thing your son might look into is getting the Devry HS diploma and AS, and then starting out at another two year school with a better reputation. After he gets a degree there, there’s really no need for him to put any HS info on his resume, so he can avoid the Devry stigma.