This is so fucking boring. You haters, we’ve heard your excuses and rationalizations ad nauseam before.
Posters like Jackmanii say “white trash” while cowardly hiding behind the hate speech rule, knowing that equivalent slurs against any other race are forbidden. It reminds me of a little pussy kid who calls other kids names as he slinks behind his mama’s skirts.
I haven’t been called a hillbilly in a long time, but it always sincerely offended me. My father was raised in southern West Virginia and came north to look for work. He faced overt discrimination, mainly because of his accent, which functions just like black skin in attracting the attention of the ignorant. I suppose some people aren’t aware of this, but Appalachians migrated by the millions to northern cities after World War II, and the discrimination and bigotry they experienced is well-documented.
If you don’t think “hillbilly” is offensive, go down to West Virginia, take a seat at the bar, and yell to the bartender in a Noo Yawk accent, “Hey, hillbilly, pour me a whiskey.” The results will be remarkably similar to what you would experience if you got a black person’s attention by saying “Hey, nigger.”
I won’t speculate on the self-image of those people. The issue is not a person calling himself a redneck, but you calling him a redneck.
Please read more carefully. All phrases that place one group of humans beneath the rest.
A cite for him never using the word again? That’ll be a tough one. Or a cite for what he meant? Are you disputing that now? No matter. It is what I took from what he said that is important.
This is just absurd. I posses some incredible power to “diminish all the great social commentary he contributed.” That’s right, his star is burning somehow dimmer because I refer to one thing he did, and ignored everything else. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?
Ah, it was a trick question. You know, I have tried to communicate with you in a way that might lead to us understanding the other’s position, but if I am forced to scan every word of your occasionally incoherent prose for syntactical pedantry, I fear that goal is out of reach. What am I to make of this remarkeable statement–
In any event, I never asserted that simple use of the word was offensive. Good Lord man, grab a little common sense. I’ve used it over and over.
I guess I’ll need a little bit more than your say so that rappers are among the downtrodden.
Man, you’ve lost me here. You realize this cite refers to 1956, right? 50 years ago? I tell you what. Show me where to find that Nat King Cole rap album and I’ll concede your point
No. Just don’t decide for others what is offensive to them. What gives you the right?
A) Says you. B) When did the condition of universal hurtfulness get on board? I daesay that ‘nigger’ is not hurtful to a Patagonian goatherd.
Hell, why not shout, “Hey, asshole, pour me a whiskey.” If you get the same response, is “asshole” hate speech?
I know all about Northerner prejudice against the South. I’ve lost touch with some dearly loved friends from college in large part due to their casual contempt for Southerners. And when people are broad-brush dissing the South, I’ll be right there beside you giving them hell for it.
But terms like “redneck” and “hillbilly” are so commonly used here in the South in a loving, respectful sense that I just have real trouble seeing them as hate speech. Same thing, to a lesser degree, with “white trash.” It’s used as an epithet more often than redneck, but the most common way I hear it used is as a self-appellation, used with defiant pride. “Me, I love cooking up some white-trash casserole,” someone might say, and they do love their casserole, and if I follow up with something insulting about white-trash cooking, I better be joking around or else I’m going to be wearing that casserole.
Please be reasonable. I have used one of those words over and over in this thread. Do I seem to be a candidate for suicide by mod? Read my response to holmes. * When used as a pejorative.* None of the threads protesting the use of other words have been about the mere* mentioning * of them. It is when they are used to refer to people that people get upset. Why waste your time with all your arguments about original intent, and shared meaning, and whatnot, if I were to be swatted away do easily. Your own responses belie your belief that that is what I meant.
Again, how is “white trash” a slur against white people, when most white people would not be insulted by its use or feel that it applies to them in any particular manner? How is it a slur against white people when the overwhelming use of it as a perjorative is done by other white people?
If I go into a kosher deli in Noo Yawk, and say to the guy behind the counter, “Hey, Jew! Get me a pound of ground beef!” the results will be remarkably similar to what I would experience if I tried to get a black person’s attention by saying, “Hey, nigger!” This does not mean that the word “Jew” is offensive.
Then it would seem that that word is not, as you earlier claimed, “deemed offensive on the SDMB no matter who says them, or with what intent.”
I find your use of the word haters hilarious. If you can, try to finish some of your sentences with “yo” or “dawg” – it’ll really enhance the overall effect, yo.
Also, could you explain to me why you think “redneck” is hate speech and “yuppie” isn’t?
Damn, I was going to post the same thing. I am a young professional in a large city. I would be annoyed if I was referred to as a yuppie. I would be annoyed not because the word is offensive, but because I don’t think I conform to many of the other things that ‘yuppie’ connotes.
I would be greatly entertained by an attempted justification of the distinction between yuppie and redneck. Or maybe yuppie is a racial slur and I just never realized it.
(quick . . . say yuppie and what do you think of)?
A WHITE PERSON
Must be another oppressive term for white people then. Our language has too few good evocative words. Quit fucking with it and trying to bowdlerize the language.
The white part refers to white people. The trash part calls these people garbage.
What does that have to do with it?
I don’t mind the pile-on but it would help if you would take the time to read all my posts. The topic at hand is “words used as slurs.” There are certain words (see my cite) that when used to refer to people admit to no other than the pejorative meaning.
They are deemed offensive no matter who uses them.
This means that, for example, **holmes ** could not call Askia a nigger and claim it was a term of affection. They are deemed offensive no matter what the intent.
This means that a poster cannot call another poster “spic” and claim that to him, “spic” means “good buddy.”
It is interesting that holmes, and Lefty, and now you have chosen to force a clearly unreasonable interpretation on my statement, given the generally high regard I have for your cognitive powers. It is particularly interesting given the fact that in a similar thread that seemed to go on forever the question was never raised.
But it’s not insulting them because they are white. Therefore, it is not a racial insult. That is a hugely significant difference between “redneck” and “nigger,” “spic,” “chink,” or even “honky.”
Well, I generally assume that people who use racial slurs are doing so because they are racists. Hyperelastic seems to be trying to claim that “redneck” and “hillbilly” are racist terms. (I confess that I am currently uncertain exactly what you are trying to claim in this thread.) Since these are terms used by white people to describe other white people, it seems unlikely to me that those using these terms hate white people.
I am reading all your posts. I’m just not comprehending them, which may be entirely my fault. But at this point, I am no longer certain exactly what position you are trying to argue.
Aren’t holmes and Askia both black? If so, I think he very well could claim it to be a term of affection. Similarly, if holmes were black and Askia were white, and holmes called Askia a nigger, I think you could make a strong argument that it would not be offensive, merely confusing.
I have, in fact, seem this exact thing on these boards, in good cheer, and with no animosity or recriminations from either side.
I’ve no idea how you’re trying to tie this to “redneck” and “hillbilly,” but your bolded statements of unconditional fact are clearly untrue.
Perhaps your original statement wasn’t all that clear to begin with, then. After all, if you have a high regard for my cognitive powers, there’s clearly something wrong with your cognitive powers.
Right, I say ALL Hippies are worthless. Since most Hippies are white, I am placing one group of humans beneath the rest, right? By calling ALL hippies worthless, I’ve basically called ALL white people worthless, since if you ask 1000 people to describe a hippie, 999 would describe a white person. Isn’t that how it works?
So is Hippy hate speech?
I was interested in the exact quote…but since you don’t care what he really said, only what you decide to take from it, it doesn’t really matter. Only your interpetation matters…sort of like declaring Redneck to be hate speech.
Your interpetation of my statement is more ridiculous.
Have you not said, in ANY context the word was offensive? Again, I have no problem with you clarifying, but stop with the “I didn’t REALLY say that.”
I didn’t say rappers were downtrodden. I compared your “point” system to rappers, based on your 999 people drawing them as one “race” and the negative stereotypes that rap and it’s performers have. If that point system makes hillbilly or redneck racist, then the term Rapper must be too.
[qoute] Man, you’ve lost me here. You realize this cite refers to 1956, right? 50 years ago? I tell you what. Show me where to find that Nat King Cole rap album and I’ll concede your point
[/quote]
Your assertion was that financial success, means that a Rap is accepted by the mass public and doesn’t have a negative image. Nat King Cole, was at the top of this game and despite his success, he was treated like crap by the same people that purchased his music…the era that it occured in is unimportant, what is important is that record sales, don’t negate the reality of how performers are perceived and treated.
After all, YOU are the one who decided that the term “redneck” should be deemed offensive. You are therefore the one who is making this decision, not only on their behalf, but on behalf of all society.
I have decided to let the people in question decide what is offensive to them. They warmly embrace the term “redneck,” and so I accept their judgment that the term is not inherently pejorative. YOU are the one who is saying that we should consider it to be blatantly offensive, not I.
I believe that I remember reading that Hillbilly Queen chose that name for SDMB after having it used as a perjorative toward her at another forum.
Do you seriously buy into the idea that Jeff Foxworthy is a so-called redneck? He is a clever stand-up comic and writer with a great gimmick and a multi-million dollar lifestyle. He does not fit with the Webster’s definition of a member of the Southern rural laboring class. Webster’s notes that this use of the word redneck is sometimes used disparagingly. He’s making a fortune! Why should he stop as long as he can get away with it?
The other use of the term redneck – the one that applies to non-Southerners – Webster’s says is often used disparagingly.
In other words, if you really want to insult someone who is not from the South, just call him a redneck. Of course, some people are so ignorant they don’t even realize that the label is DUMB.
LHOD, not if you go by woodstockbirdybird’s take on it. At least “geeks” get credit for being intelligent. (I guess it just depends on what has been used against you and those you love.)
Do you find that “geeks” are put down a lot at SDMB? I see the most off-handed digs at Southerners once or twice a week. It reflects what I’ve been exposed to all of my life.
It’s not so much that I’m wounded by it anymore. It’s just tiresome. The ignorance of others is humorless and deadly dull and I expect better from some Dopers.
I’m not one that is arguing that it is a racial thing. But I’m curious. Have you ever been part of a segment of the population that has been discriminated against?
So, what’s your problem with my definition of “hillbilly”? Are you saying there aren’t people that fit the description? I met more than a few, especially when I was in the Army. Or are you assuming that I use the term to apply to anyone from a rural area? If so, that’s your own problem. I use it based on a person’s actions, not their geographical origin. And I have no problem using it still, if the shoe fits.
I have. Been a minority in many situations, and even beaten up because of it. And guess what? I don’t act like a poor wounded kitten every time I hear “cracker” or “white boy” (where I lived, it was apparently difficult to come up with racial slurs for caucasians) hurled at me by idiots who don’t know me. Of course, if I did fit the stereotypical definition of a cracker or redneck or hillbilly, I probably would be offended, since it would be an accurate insult.
Almost everybody has been discriminated against to some degree. Especially in your early teenage years, there are people who will look for any slight difference to judge you on (it wasn’t all a barrel of laughs having a dyed mohawk in Oakland in '84). But people who are out of their teens generally get over that bullshit at some point and figure out those kind of ignorant insults say everything about the person slinging them and nothing about the person being slandered. Or maybe they don’t, which is why we’re such a nation of pussies and victims.
Anyway, there’s no doubt “redneck” and “hillbilly” are meant disparagingly - that’s how I use 'em, to be sure. But these poor souls who find it an attack on their whiteness seem like they’re grasping at things to be offended by - ie, part of the pussies and victims.
The problem is that your argument is inconsistent. For your argument to work, it seems that words must be both inherently offensive, and subject to tests of context to decide whether they’re offensive. In this post, you’re clearly taking the “subject to context” argument; in others, you take the “inherently offensive” argument, depending on which points you’re trying to rebut.
I know you’re smarter than to believe that the words are offensive in all circumstances; I just think you forget that occasionally in the zeal of an argument, and I was reminding you.
As I recall, whether words could be inherently offensive WAS a major component of our last horns-locking on this subject.
Zoe, do you really doubt that I could craft a definition of “dork” that would both correspond to many folks’ usage of the term and be more offensive than Woody’s definition of “hillybilly”? If I need to, I’ll dig up the definition (I think it was of “dork”) that someone posted on the Dungeons and Dragons messageboard I moderate :).
Words can be offensive. Dork, hillbilly, yuppie, asshole, motherfucker, fundy–these words all fit in the category of being offensive without being attached to a pattern of violence. There’s another category of words, which I’m sure you all can come up with yourselves, that are offensive and are attached to a pattern of violence.
It’s perfectly reasonable to draw a line in a private arena that distinguishes pejoratives with violent associations from pejoratives without those associations.
This is where the argument breaks down for me. If their being white has nothing to do with it, why bring it up? How far do you think you would get calling a black Doper “a piece of black trash?”
Here are a couple of cites that define how I view racism– cite cite cite
Only one of about twenty definitions even mentions the word hate, and then as an example of extremism. It is not at all clear to me that hatred is a necessary component of racism. Consider this thought experiment–if I, a white man, were the warden of a prison, and I denied privilges to all of the white inmates becausethey were white, that would be racist. My motives don’t really enter into it.
All humans share a common quality. Call it humaness. Call it dignity. Call it respect due to shared humanity. I realise that these terms are vague. I am hopeful that you will understand what I am trying to say.
Perhaps the greatest transgression (non-physical) that one human can commit against another is to deny him that quality; to place him in a category of sub-human, or less than human, or lesser human. This is what racism does. It reduces individuals to stereotypes and denies them their individual humanity by assigning negative characteristics to them arbitrarily. When you identify a group of people by color, and dehumanize them based on that definition, then you have committed an act of racism.
My entry into this thread questioned an apology for “redneck” that does not appear to apply to “nigger.” After that, it became a continuation of another thread where Lefty and** holmes** were arguing with me.
The way I read the post by TVeblen (previously cited) that is not the case
I have no particular interest in “redneck” and “hillbilly” one way or another, except to support **Hyperelastic’s ** contention that they are terms that refer to white people. Again, see my Tveblen cite, and give me your interpretation, if you don’t mind.
Thanks.
From your mouth-
As fruitbat said, what we have here is a severe case of offense by proxy. Lighten up.
Clearly you are dismissing the concept that someone could be offended by these terms. And I have made no such decision. I have merely supported Hyperelastic’s right to claim offense.
*The performance veers wildly from topic to topic, but Pryor deftly wraps it around two confessional pieces. The first describes his trip to central Africa, his “roots” journey, where he was awestruck by the equanimity of Kenyan society. After three weeks there, Pryor found he had not used the word “nigger” once, “because there are no niggers there,” and here he vows he will never again **call another black man ** by that name. The moment earns him an ovation form an audience that includes Jesse Jackson. * (Bolding mine)
Once again, please read more carefully. I did not say I did not care. I said it did not matter. Once again you eqivocated two disparate phrases. This is getting tiresome.
Are all your ideas mere parrotings of those of other people? Or do you sometimes take an idea as a starting point and expand upon it yourself? Have you ever had an “ah ha!” moment where your thoughts crystallize in new ways? If you haven’t, you should try. If you have, then you will understand what I mean when I make reference to Richard Pryor.
This is your statement- By reducing him to that one declaration, you diminish all the great social commentary he contributed when he did use the word and you have to ignore that he still used it.
This is my interpretation of it.
it looks more or less word for word to me. Would you be so kind as to point exactly to where it veers into ridiculousness?
OK. To clarify. Again. “When used as a pejorative.”
Cprporate America disagrees with you. cite cite
If AT&T, Alltell, KMart, Visa, Reebok, and Chevro-fucking-lay (Heartbeat of America; As American as Apple Pie)are using rappers as pitchmen I’d say their connotations just jumped into the positive with all four feet. You’re gonna have to get up offa that ‘negative image’ bullshit, holmes.
Listen, dumbass. 50 years ago a black heart surgeon couldn’t get a room in the crummiest motel in Birmingham. Are you suggesting that heart surgeons had a negative image? Or was it just pianists/vocalists? Don’t be dragging any 50 year old bullshit into a discussion about accomodations for rappers, for Christ’s sake. Ever watch MTV? I’d say they’re living pretty good.
As stated above, my interpretation of the TVeblen cite from the previous horn-locking admitted no other interpretation of the words mentioned when used as a pejorative. Obviously, I did noy make this clear, although to me it was clear in her statement. To clarify–I do not think that words are offensive in all circumstances. I would hope that you would realize that I mean no offense to anyone (save for those who strike first), and would never have used the words I did in any way other than a recitation of the word itself, in the context of discussing its meaning.
