sorry epolo - disregard about 90% of my post outright. Remaining: “suicide is not the answer.” Neither is closeting yourself in your room. So now what do we do about you. 
that’s fair I guess. I fully expect a woman to get the same reaction if they stated it the way you did though. If you’ve been rejected by a certain woman because you don’t meet her weight standards - wouldn’t you think she might be on the losing end there? Her loss? Anything like that ring a bell? Honestly curious.
jayjay’s post is excellent. And I’ve noticed that things look better when you do stop thinking in negative, self-defeating terms.
But the “fatass” issue was not insignificant either. Why should you expect support and understanding for your own plight when you are obviously contemptuous of others? And yes, I know RexDart backpedaled somewhat from the “fatass” stuff. But still—it’s been obvious for a while that he has “issues” with fatness. And not just a run-of-the-mill, “I don’t find them attractive, no big deal” attitude, which is certainly not a rare (or horrible) attitude. His issues with fatness require that he repeat and bring up the topic of fatness and how unattractive he finds it (and use terms like “fatass”). Like in this OP. My gosh, it doesn’t take much to pick up on that, and to not find it endearing.
Omg. That was a very lovely post. I hope that’s the sort of thing my husband would say about me. wistful sigh
Oh, and just getting off your ass doesn’t always help the way you think it will or want it. I once went on a total diet/health kick. I ate weird food that tasted bad. I lost 25 pounds, but my breasts went from a DD cup to a …DD cup. There is no escaping these puppies.
Quasi-Hijack: Please allow me to be anal for a moment. “Negative reinforcement” is not what y’all are describing. As far as I know, reinforcement always means making an action MORE likely to happen. So it involves doing something so that something negative will not happen. (Like taking out the trash so a family member will stop nagging you. The absence of his or her nagging is negative reinforcement.)
On a different note, as a fairly “fat chick” myself, I don’t have a problem with guys saying that they aren’t attracted to fat women. I don’t imagine control over their libido, and I’m sure that there’s a reason why guys will be more likely to date skinny, cute models than me.
But it bothers me when a guy says that he might have to resort to a fat girl, as if that is the worst option for a mate that he can think of. God, just because I’m 30 lbs overweight doesn’t mean I am the bottom of the barrel! Is it really true that because my stomach is larger than the norm that most guys cannot get an erection around me? When did I cross that line from arousing into a little gross?
Eh, but that is my emotional reaction coming through. I was kinda wondering though, (and I know this is a shitty analogy), what if it were females talking about how they didn’t like guys who weren’t financially successful? Where would the line be drawn?
I don’t want to speak for RexDart here, but for me this goes right to the heart of the issue. I don’t expect support or understanding. I expect people to think I’m a loser. It’s perfectly obvious to me that I’m a loser, although weight is not one of the reasons for me. But I’m sure that if I started to list the qualities that I see in myself and pointed out that these would turn me off to a potential love interest, I would offend plenty of other people.
I’m “contemptuous” of others (I’m not sure that’s exactly the right word, but I’ll go with it for now) because I’m contemptuous of myself. I don’t want to settle for going out with anyone whose standards are so low they would go out with me [waggles eyebrows, puffs cigar] since obviously they must be physically disfigured, and emotional wreck, or have some other problem that keeps them from dating a normal, healthy guy.
To me, the problem with all advice that I’ve ever gotten for this has to do with death of ego. I don’t know how to change myself in a directed sort of way (as opposed to “natural” undirected growth) without it seeming like I’m killing myself. There’s something (ego) that I’m holding onto, that I don’t want to change, because then I wouldn’t be “me” anymore. But that ego always trips me up and gets me down:
“I’m not good enough”
“I’m the saddest most pathetic person in the world”
“I need to be the center of attention”
“I need to hijack multiple threads to deal with my neuroses”
etc.
To be fair, there are women who talk that way, just as their are men who talk that way about fat chicks.
I am conteding that they are, and their relative impact cannot be determined from their nature alone.
And others use it as a reason to chastise others.
Why do you appoint yourself as arbiter of what are real problems and what are so-called problems?
Can I say this applies to your intending to fix their ignorant ways?
Maybe this is so. I won’t argue that this never happens.
::shrug:: You tell me.
Good point, I think the money analogy is the best way of showing men how insulting it is to only want women for their bodies. Nobody likes to think that if only they were X amount less prettier, or less wealthy, they wouldn’t be wanted.
I asked specifically about the societal pressure which prompts some people to starve themselves (anorexia). And you think this is good? Yes, or no? Also, there’s a lot of peer pressure among some groups of society to start smoking. Good, or not good? There’s also societal pressure to get people to stop smoking. Do you think that cruel treatment and constant nagging has been a positive way to encourage people to stop smoking? Wanna take a poll on this board and find out how many people stopped smoking soley because everyone was an asshole to them and treated them like shit?
Yes, sometimes chastisment is prompted by obnoxious behavior that is hurting, or impacting on others. But sometimes, assholes just use the “I’m telling you this cruel thing for your own good” rationale to be gleefully mean to people who are minding their own business, not hurting anybody. Which is something that many of us see quite frequently, especially when it comes to fatness.
There’s a whole slew of us who are saying that a negative anti-fat (or anti-bald, whatever) bias is hurtful to many. Are you saying that seeing a chick walk down the street who is 2 sizes too big (or just thinking about the concept of a chick who is two sizes too big) is terribly “harmful”? Do you think that a mean-spirited negative bias is the equivalent in harmfulness to merely casting one’s eyes upon a fat chick? Is such an ordeal (seeing a fat chick) so “harmful” that one must feel compelled to go up to the hypothetical fat chick and try to “save her” by insulting her and telling her what a fat cow she is, or, by carrying on to those around you about how unattractive you find fat chicks?
Once again, you are being deliberately obtuse: most of us will call someone on cruel statements or behavior, because they are harmful to others. This is wholly different than being deliberately cruel to someone who is minding their own business, all in the name of “I’m doing this for your own good”. The fat chick is minding her own business, she isn’t asking to be “saved”, (especially not through cruelty and insults) by any random stranger on the street or anywhere else.
This thread is an example of it, in a way. Someone was offended because anti-fat bias was being called on. So, it’s OK to be openly anti-fat, (according to those who are anti-fat) but it’s not OK to be called on being anti-fat. That’s somehow different. In other words, it’s OK to be on the giving end of shit, but not on the recieving end.
Or, are you really trying to tell us that fat folk dish out more negative abuse than the anti-fat folk? Want to provide some cites?
Is this the anti anti fat people thread?
Thanks for the less than subtle hints, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with someone expressing the opinion that fat = loser.
“Short people have no reason to live”, “No fat chicks”, “Bald is Beautiful”, “My kid is an honor student”…
Whatever. Are you that insecure that you have to publicy fear someone proclaiming they consider fat people losers?
WHY does fat = loser? WHY? WHY oh WHY? Is it rooted in nothing?
“mean people suck” - Goddam that’s just not very considerate of mean people! I mean, that could spawn a mean people holocaust.
Considering the absence of ‘my kid is a below average student’ bumper stickers and signs, it is apparent that as a society we publicly chastise idiots.
Thus the reaction to your posts in this thread. 
And thank you for the very nice people who expressed their enjoyment of the (very condensed) story of my emotional transformation.
It should be noted that because of that transformation, I’m in the position of having social options to choose from (read: multiple people interested in dating me).
Interesting. I think you have a long-lost brother over in RexDart’s thread.
Good for you jayjay.
Sorry {hijack}
Cite please? I’m sorry, I realize that there are some people who have problems with their endocrine systems that in rare cases cause obesity. And I also realize that sometimes people get to such a state, that drastic measures, such as the gastric bypass surgery, are necessary.
But I have never seen "the medical community"providing evidence that dieting doesn’t work.
Now, let me qualify, they (the medical community) HAVE said that FAD diets don’t work. But that’s not the same as a properly managed, balanced diet.
But for most average humans, even those who are really overweight?
It is a proven fact that adjusting your calorie intake so that you have at least a 200-300 calorie deficit WILL cause weight loss. But, there are many other factors, such as exercise, that need to be brought into play for the best results.
Dieting, the proper way, does work for most people. But not just diet alone. Weight-training and cardiovascular exercise are crucial in addition to diet. And it has to be longer than the month, or month and a half that most people stick with it, and it has to be a disciplined effort to work.
And yes, I’m a fitness professional.
Sorry …{end hijack}
I think there are also people who aren’t prompted to starvation, so your analysis is incomplete. Period.
Smoking doesn’t really concern me, actually.
Obviously I wouldn’t have characterized it as “negative reinforcement” if I thought so.
I don’t know. Does she hate herself for it?
No.
No. Do you think “harm” is why they do it? Do you think I think that?
So my answer is “yes”?
Well, I don’t recall ascribing motivation to individual actors. I recall saying that it formed peer pressure through negative reinforcement. It was meant to be a cumulative effect. Though I suppose there may be some who do this as you suggest.
Okey dokey. I don’t recall disputing this.
I don’t recall stating that opinion.
No.
Consistent dieting lowers your metabolic setpoint.
This page explaines the setpoint
This article talks about a study done of the metabolic setpoint
This study suggests other causes for obesity
About 3/4 down the page it talks about setpoints.
So no, I’m not buying ‘its a proven fact’ that lowering your caloric intake a few hundred calories will cause you to lose weight. That worked for me when I first started dieting, but it hasn’t worked in a long time.
I wish DDG were here. She enjoys looking for links. If these links are not good enough for you (and I imagine they won’t be - after all, you’re a ‘fitness professional’ - very different from a weight loss professional, IMO), google search for ‘metabolic setpoint’.
Careful, sperfur… DDG is here somewhere, I saw here in the pit earlier.
so exercise to speed it back up. this isn’t rocket science here.
Well, I wish she were here, 'cuz she’s quite good at finding those elusive links that are so hard to put your hands on.
I never said exercise doesn’t work. I said dieting doesn’t work. From the way you wrote this, it kinda sounds like you agree with me.
Tars, thank you for that helpful advice. I thought all I was doing was providing the requested cites, but in doing so you pointed out something I never would have known otherwise! I’ll start spreading the word to the millions of overweight people that this is all we need to do.
‘All we have to do is exercise! Tars Tarkas said so!’ And to think, all this time, I thought it was rocket science! :wally
Maybe to you, but not to the vast majority of other people. You are seriously deluding yourself.
UnuMondo
Bwahahaa.