Quoting statistics, repeating the term abuser, and labeling his final acts as being devoid of accountability do nothing to help me follow your original point, which was, since he was the type to do X he was not the type to do Y. It still does not follow for me.
If you’re personally invested in finding him to be devoid of empathy, and you believe him to be irredeemable for what he did, then say so. I won’t dispute your finding in that case.
I’ve made a pretty strong case for my thoughts on that matter. I’ll plug it into your formula, if it helps: People who strangle other people are not the kind of people to self-reflect or atone for their actions. The unwillingness to do that is baked right into the abuse dynamic itself.
I don’t think anyone is irredeemable. I LOVE a good redemption story! But redemption requires accountability. That doesn’t mean exiting the world because you don’t want to face the consequences of the awful thing you have done, it means facing those you have harmed, acknowledging the harm you have caused and taking steps that directly address the problem. In this case, in addition to pleading guilty, obviously he would need to spend the rest of life life educating people about domestic violence strangulation, or something to that effect. I don’t know. That would be on him to figure out.
Sorry, that sounded snarkier than I intended. I have a bug up my ass about people taking accountability for their actions, and this was not, by any stretch of the imagination, accountability.
I’ve lost students and friends to suicide. While I understand your contempt, I think you’re missing a crucial piece. Sometimes people are in so much emotional pain for so long that they can’t comprehend anything beyond that–not won’t; can’t. Some people who experience depression get so exhausted dealing with it over the long haul that they just can’t keep going.
Example: one of my former students who killed himself was an extremely compassionate, caring person who loved his family dearly. He’d been struggling hard with severe depression for a very long time. Neither medications nor therapy helped. Eventually, he was too exhausted to go on. He chose to die where his parents would not be the ones to discover his corpse. He left them a long letter that included directions for first responders to find his body. He knew his parents would grieve hard, but he simply couldn’t continue. I’m still in touch with his parents, and they miss him terribly, but they never for one moment thought their boy committed a selfish act because they know he didn’t.
I’m not arguing that suicide doesn’t inflict pain on others. It does. I’ve experienced that anguish. I’m simply saying that viewing suicide in every instance as a supremely selfish act means an incomplete understanding.
I’m still angry at Brian Laundrie because he didn’t leave any information that would have helped the Petito family fill in the blanks that will always haunt them and because he emotionally and physically abused his fiancée. I’ll never respect him. But there’s a world of difference between Laundrie and all the others I’ve known who killed themselves.
I disagree with any argument that bases itself on kinds of people.
Do you stand by your assertion that since he did X he was incapable of Y? Do you further claim that since his actions do not align with your definition of atonement that it’s impossible that he could have been atoning with the actions he took?
Maybe you do, and that’s ok, but it’s not objective.
In addition to what @nelliebly said, I’ll suggest that you might think of it like this: in effect, by sharing your own, personal views–what amounts to a moral position–you are effectively telling people who are or may become at some point (not through choice, but through circumstances and how the human mind tends to work) suicidal that their urge to end their own life is a selfish one. First of all, not only can you not possibly know that, but more to the point, the last thing someone in that state of mind needs (a state of mind they probably don’t want to be in and can’t easily work themselves out of) is to be harkening back to a moral framework that emphasizes what a terrible person they are for even having such selfish thoughts. If not your words, then the moral framework (shared by others, and to my mind quite harmful) your words represent may be be echoing through the mind of someone who is already, quite literally, suicidally depressed, and the last thing they need is to be thinking about what a “selfish person” they are for having such urges.
Telling someone who is suicidal–telling people who may become suicidal–that their urge to end their own life is a selfish one, is not life affirming, it does not highlight the value of that life, it only feeds into the toxic forces already at work in the mind of someone who may be suicidal. It may have the perverse effect of reinforcing their belief that the world would be better off without them. After all, they’re just so selfish…
Laundrie’s case should be distinguished as he (quite likely) murdered someone, and so assumed a moral obligation to engage with that in some way, either on a personal level with Petito’s family, on a societal level in facing the consequences of his actions through trial, or both. But, so far as we know, he did not.
I made no such assertion.
I said…
I don’t further claim anything. I have a personal definition of accountability that this gentleman failed to meet. My best WAG at his psychology is reasonable conjecture based on the evidence. Whether he was feeling remorse or not is immaterial to whether he was willing or able to self-reflect and take accountability for his actions - remorse is, again, part of the abuse cycle. It is not sufficient. For me. Thank you.
What kind of monster sheds his mortal coil without answering all the questions we have? …oh, and kills his fiancée.
No, I’m not.
Please, no more sob stories, I have plenty myself including a sister who struggled with mental illness for nearly two decades. I don’t know when we suddenly stopped disregarding the wreckage suicides leave behind them but apparently that’s a thing now. Sure, nearly all are in not in a competent mental state and their illness is in the driver’s seat. That doesn’t erase the selfishness of their actions.
Are there some very, very rare circumstances where the above does not apply? Yeah - but they are extremely rare. Damn few people need to fling themselves on a live grenade to save the rest of their military squad.
Right - what you’re saying boils down to you disagree with my stance therefore I should shut up and never express myself because someone feeling suicidal might, by accident, stumble across a post where I state my views on suicide.
I’m not asking you to agree with me - why are you telling me to be silent because I disagree with you? No dissenting viewpoints allowed?
I am telling you that you really have no way of knowing what is going on in the mind of some other person contemplating suicide, that your belief that suicide is fundamentally selfish in every case cannot possibly be true and, regardless, that telling people they are selfish while they are suicidally depressed (literally) is liable to be harmful. So not only do I not grant that what you are saying is true, it seems at best conjecture, and at worst both harmful and false in general.
So maybe think about that. Because I don’t think it’s particularly unlikely that one of the dozens of people who read this thread might now be or will in the future be entertaining thoughts of ending their own life, and I don’t want them thinking about how supposedly “selfish” they are for having such thoughts. I don’t want them to read, from you, about what are terrible person they are supposed to be, I want them to get help. Because I don’t think they are selfish people. I think they are people in pain that I cannot imagine and they need help and understanding, not to be told how selfish (you think) they are
But wouldn’t the reverse be true, too?
You argue against telling someone who may become suicidal that what’s contemplated is selfish, that it’s not life-affirming, that it doesn’t highlight the value of life, because it may have the perverse effect of reinforcing their belief — so what happens if someone who may be suicidal instead gets told that what they’re contemplating isn’t selfish, and is life-affirming, and does highlight the value of life?
Do you figure that such a message could serve as reinforcement of, uh, the non-perverse kind?
It’s totally possible to acknowledge the wreckage left behind by suicide, which is, in many cases, a tragedy, without impugning the character of the victim.
The “suicide is selfish” argument has never sat right with me.
Suicide is an act of desperation. The person who takes their own life has decided that they are already enduring, or are about to endure, a fate worse than death. I am against the death penalty, and I am also against punishment with a fate worse than death-- and I think only the person suffering it gets to decide if it’s worse. There are a few cases of people with fatal and painful diseases who opt for physician-assisted suicide with a clear head, and I am very much in support of their right to do so, even if their families disagree. I would take a harder pro-right-to-die stance and say I support anyone’s right to shuffle off this mortal coil at a time and manner of their choosing, were it not for the undeniable fact that many, perhaps most people who try to off themselves, are not in their right minds at the time. This can be observed by the significant numbers of people who are rescued from a suicide attempt and never attempt it again.
The pain of those they leave behind is an additional reason to try to rescue those who can truly be rescued-- those who would change their minds once the impulse has passed, and want to live again. But it’s not reason enough to force someone who would honestly choose death every day to keep on living. That, to me, is a selfish thing to want to do to another person, especially someone you claim to love.
If Brian Laundrie was in a state of mind to consider how those unanswered questions would haunt the Petitos, and he chose not to answer those questions because it was too painful for him, then I would agree that silence was selfish. But that doesn’t depend on his suicide. He could have lived and still refused to ever speak of it; he could’ve called or left a note and still killed himself. I don’t doubt that his parents would rather see him alive and in prison than dead in a swamp. But that doesn’t necessarily impose upon him a moral obligation to stay alive, and therefore doesn’t render his suicide a selfish act.
That was no sob story. It was an illustrative example.
Nobody who’s posted in this thread has disregarded the emotional wreckage suicides leave behind them. (I assume you didn’t mean “stopped disregarding.”) It’s pretty hard to disregard the emotional wreckage when you’re in it up to your neck. You want to see how little I’ve disregarded emotional wreckage? Go teach at a high school in a small town after a kid has killed himself. See those kids sobbing in the halls? Now watch the crisis counselors working with them. See the teachers who break down in the inevitable morning faculty meeting after a teen suicide? Watch their colleagues put arms around them and check on them throughout the days and weeks ahead. Go to the funerals of teens who ended their lives and watch the grieving mothers physically supported so they can make it up the aisle. Hang around someone who lost a boyfriend to suicide. (That was me.)
Don’t tell ME we disregard the emotional wreckage. I’ve lived it, sister. The refusal to indulge in a blanket condemnation of everyone who’s committed suicide is not synonymous with disregarding the emotional toll on others.
I guess it’s obvious that this is a painful and deeply personal subject with me. I stand by what I’ve said, but I’m removing myself from this thread.
I’m sorry - did you not read my posts? Did I not qualify that there was the possibility of exceptions?
I’m sorry - did you skip over where I stated quite plainly that I would NOT tell someone that who is in a mental health crisis?
What YOU are doing it telling me to STFU and NEVER express my opinion in public on the off chance that maybe at some point someone who is feeling suicidal might read it. Real class act, that. Junior modding on top of it. How dare I say what’s on my mind, right?
I don’t want them to read YOUR words that you think so little of them that it’s alright with you if they just kill themselves. But you don’t see me telling you to shut up. Have you no care for the lives of your fellow human beings?
I do.
That is not incompatible with them being selfish. People who are ill and people who are in pain ARE selfish, it’s a symptom and a very common reaction to illness and pain of any sort. That does not make them a bad person.
Look, I wouldn’t let someone with an uncontrolled seizure disorder drive a car. And I won’t let someone suicidal try to kill themself without making some attempt to stop them. Both people are suffering from a disorder that makes them a danger to themselves and others.
But just as I think someone with uncontrolled epilepsy who insists and persists in driving is selfish and disregards others, so too I think someone who is mentally ill to the point of being suicidal likewise is selfish and disregards others. That doesn’t mean I think they’re a bad person, it’s just that their illness is manifesting in a manner where being selfish is one component.
People who are mentally ill need to be helped, they need treatment, they need assistance. That’s because they are, as human beings, inherently valuable and not to be discarded. I do understand that they don’t feel that way, but they are. They need help, they don’t need to be neglected and ignored and allowed to kill themselves without even a token attempt to try to help them.
I admit my view of murderers who commit suicide is less charitable than non-murderers who commit suicide. Not just murderers – I was furious when Epstein killed himself, denying his victims justice. I don’t generally feel people are obligated to stay alive for the benefit of others, in fact I think it’s pretty selfish to expect that of people in deep torment – but I think when you destroy lives, your ethical obligation to deal with the fallout rises considerably.
That is an instance where I am willing to concede that my general characterization of suicide as wrong may not apply.
^ This.
MOST people who are suicidal are NOT “in their right minds” or legally competent to make decisions. If you aren’t competent to run your affairs then you are competent to make a life-or-death decision.
As I’ve said all along (although some choose to ignore what I say) there are exceptions. But they’re just that - exceptions.
No, he does not have an obligation to stay alive for the sake of other people. It’s his decision. And I have my own opinion of his decision. He’s a selfish asshole, and not just because of how he murdered himself, but also because he most likely murdered Gaby Petito.
What, you think I have not experienced suicide in my family? An uncle, my oldest sister, suicide attempts by my mother, an attempt by a boyfriend, a college roommate, a stranger who chose the train I was riding to end it all (that one resulted in the driver becoming completely hysterical and needing to be sedated and taken off the train on stretcher). Again, don’t try the sob stories. I’ve seen the wreckage left behind, experienced it, and that is precisely why I say suicide is a selfish act that inflicts great harm on other people. Sometimes directly - as in the case of the suicide on the train tracks - and sometimes simply because a loved one has died when they didn’t have to, and the murderer is also the self-same loved one, which generates all sorts of contradictory emotions.
Again, I have stated multiple times there can be exceptions. Stop straw-manning me.
And likewise with me.
What in the world does that have to do with anything? No one is saying they don’t deserve help. We’re upset at you for deciding to attack suicide victims and other people who have been suicidal by labeling them as selfish. People have already explained to you that it’s not true—that suicidal people generally think that everyone else would be better off if they were gone. So they are not only thinking about themselves and not caring about or wanting to hurt others. So they aren’t being selfish.
The one saving grace about your current position is that you seem to have redefined “selfish” to mean something other than “self-centered and doesn’t care about others.” Best I can figure is that you’re defining it as “hurts other people.” But that’s not how people use that word. My mother’s death hurt a lot of my family, but in no way was she being selfish. Similarly, someone else with an illness that unfortunately ends with their death is not being selfish, either.
I could see that maybe you’re still mad at your sister. And I would never say that feeling is wrong. But I will say that isn’t a valid reason to say that nearly all of the rest of us are selfish. And, yes, I said us, as I’ve been suicidal before, too. And, if you haven’t, I’m not going to respect you telling me what my motivations were.
I was not selfish. My teacher was not selfish. My friends were not selfish. My cousin was not selfish. My friends were not selfish. My sister was not selfish. The random people who would share with me were not being selfish. I have never met a single selfish suicidal person.
You are entitled to your feelings. But everyone is entitled to tell you that your claimed facts are both wrong and offensive. So, please, for the love of others, take back such a hateful statement that over 99% of suicidal people are selfish. They are no more selfish than people dying of any illness.
Please. An alcoholic may not intend to hurt others but if they drive drunk they certainly can do so. Someone suicidal may not intend to hurt others, but if they kill themselves they certainly do so.
The difference is that if you die from cancer or infection or the like you are not causing your own death. A suicide kills themselves, they very much ARE causing their own death. It’s not some unfortunate accident, it’s a deliberate act.
If you don’t want to me to make assumptions about YOU and what your motivations are do NOT presume to know if I am “angry” or not at a particular person.
It’s not about your feelings or your motivations. It’s about your ACTIONS and their effects on other people. The act of killing yourself causes pain and trauma to other people. There is no way around that. Maybe in rare situations - terminal cancer, for example - there is justification for such an act, but it’s a damn rare thing. Most suicidal people don’t have cancer, they are mentally ill. Most of them can be treated, and should be.
And yet I’m being told over and over I’m wrong and should not have those feelings…
I’m sorry - when did the entire population of the planet take a vote on this?
If you’re offended by my honest opinion that’s too bad - but I will no more recant my honestly held view than you will.
The only reason they’re dying is because they are trying to kill themselves.
And there you go again - demanding I deny my feelings, recant my beliefs. Am I entitled to my stance or not? And if I am, then by what right do you try to silence me?
I realize mine is not the most popular stance, but that does not mean it should be silenced.
My sister hurt me terribly by killing herself. I also understand that it was her illness that caused her to injure others. I am sad that her illness impelled her to commit such a monstrous and harmful act. That is not the same thing at all as being “angry” at her. I pity her.