I’m not sure that the town’s reasoning was silly at all. Sure some specific components were less solid than others, but the main point was there was a long list of reasons to kill you and a really short list of reasons to keep you.
Your “scum wouldn’t do that” gambit intrigues me. Basically, the only person you would have succeeded in fooling is not in the game (me). Town has never bought into the “scum wouldn’t do that” defense, ever. Even when it is plainly obvious that scum really would NEVER do that. Quite frankly, I don’t think they ever will. So taking that tactic was ill-advised.
I don’t know what to thing of JSexton. I was leaning scum before the Blaster Master drama, but now I’m not sure. Since Blaster Master is PFK, he doesn’t get brownie points for the lynch.
What I don’t understand is why PFK’s necessarily need to be killed. In some cases they can be an additional tool for the town depending on their win condition. Matter of fact they could be a town asset depending on the predisposition of the person. For example if you are Nancy Do Good and your win condition is totally independent of any faction and is not solo wouldn’t town want that soul around to do some dirty night work for them? Of course, Johnny Be Bad could be an asset for scum but it seems net/net to be a town asset.
Actually, I’m really surprised that neither you nor Blaster were completely open with the Town - especially you, because your own limitations meant that you could really hurt the Scum much more than the Town. You had relatively few eligible Townie targets, but you had to know that the demons would generally qualify under the “must be armed” rule.
If I had been either one of you, I’d have said, under pressure: “look, I’m a Serial Killer. But if you look at your own win condition, it says nothing about preventing third-party wins. That’s because we can’t steal your win. Work with me here, and everyone will be happy.”
yeah being completely open about it, would totally have changed the game for ya if you had come forth with the goods, peeks. It woulda been worth a shot, if 24 hours before the end of the day- you had just come out and said “guys, there’s 2 SKs out here. I’m the GOOD one. The other one is an evil evil bastard who wants to eat your children and lick your babies! Vote for me and all hell would occur, but in the meantime, i can’t hurt unarmed peep” or something, basically tell the truth, but fudge a little to make the other SK look like a right bastard, only problem was- the other SK wasn’t doing anything lethal! =(
What I don’t understand is why PFK’s necessarily need to be killed. In some cases they can be an additional tool for the town depending on their win condition. Matter of fact they could be a town asset depending on the predisposition of the person. For example if you are Nancy Do Good and your win condition is totally independent of any faction and is not solo wouldn’t town want that soul around to do some dirty night work for them? Of course, Johnny Be Bad could be an asset for scum but it seems net/net to be a town asset.
I had considered coming clean, but there were two problems. One, I’d already gone all out to get peeker killed because he was a Serial Killer, and Two, there’s an established pattern of always killing PFKs. Hell, I was one of the people who helped to create that pattern because it’s almost always beneficial to the scum to have the PFKs taken out, but it’s not nearly always as beneficial to the town for it. The REAL problem was, how could either of us ever possibly convince the town that we wouldn’t steal their win? There simply isn’t a precedence for that, and all they’d have to go on is the word of someone they knew they couldn’t trust.
On that note, like I kind of alluded to in the game, I do think the town made a bad move lynching me, even if they were pretty sure I was PFK. I had not actually managed to kill anyone, so me being a SK didn’t fit with the available evidence. I had no link to anyone except for another PFK, so there was absolutely no information to be gained from my lynch, and I actually had the potential to provide useful information to the town. The only question would have been whether or not I could have stolen their win in the next Night which, like I also said, just wouldn’t make sense because it was only the Fourth Night in a rather large game, and I had provably not played the role perfectly.
All of this is stuff that an experienced, pro-town player should have picked up. I think if NAF had been around and part of the discussion, I may have had a better opportunity to get that out there. This is also why I’m reasonably certain JSexton is scum.
On that note though, I just wish the Day were longer. What really happened to me was I ran out of time, because I’d managed to convince enough of the town not to vote for me that I think with some more opportunity to make my argument, especially with someone like NAF poking me with the benefit of the town in mind, versus someone like JSexton who, again, I’m convinced is scum and wanted to see me lynched whether I was town or PFK, then I think I could have gotten a couple more votes onto Hal, and lived to fight some more.
And also, since I think it came up in here too, can someone please explain the logic of how me changing my playstyle is anti-town? By the logic I’ve seen, it’s just as much anti-scum as it is anti-town. If I’m pegged as an aggressive, loud person when I have a particular role, or a reasonable person when I have another, then the scum have as much difficulty pinning whether I’m vanilla or a power role as town does determining whether I’m pro-town or anti-town. Obviously, my experiment in this game was a failure, but does my change of style really upset people that much?
I agree, mostly. I generally push for all PFK to be considered part of the Town’s lynch burden, even if they are innocuous to the town. Town simply can’t know that a PFK is not malicious. If there is no way of knowing, the PFK has to die. I think there is precedence for innocuous PFK, but even with precedence Town still has to lynch the PFK.
Here I disagree. For the same reason town would have to kill you if you came clean, Town has to lynch you in this case.
I’m not sure if that is the case. Given a choice between you and Hal Briston, you are the better lynch. Both are lurkers and your posting on the last day revealed ample evidence of non-Townness. The choice looks pretty simple to me. I do agree with you that JSexton is a good place to look for scum though.
Possibly, possibly not. The shorter days might simply be more efficient. If the day were longer then it probably would have just taken longer for the town to start harping on you. That is, you might have only had one day to work in either case. The beginning of the Day is just fluff no matter what. A case could be made that shorter days just moves up the juicy parts.
My feeling is that anything that obfuscates your motivations is anti-Town. Changing styles is self-serving, that is, it helps you as an individual; since everyone else has no idea what team you are on, it helps you and hurts them. So killing you is the easier than having to decide whether each of your actions is scum-motivated or some fancy new “style.”
And it is very much more anti-town than it is anti-scum, because you could be scum. And even when you are not, obfuscating whether or not you are a powerrole is a very minor facet. In other words, hiding that you are scum is much more anti-town than hiding whether or not you are a powerrole is anti-scum.
I disagree with sach on this one BlaM. All it does is make you like a new player every game. My problem with it is that you have recently been choosing anti-town playstyles. Ironically the only game of the last several I have seen you play in where you didn’t pick an anti-town style of play was SDMB…where you were scum.
So it isn’t so much that you change the way you play, but how you change the way you play.
On the subject of your lynch:
I think if I had a little bit more time the Day you were lynched I would have talked the town into lynching Hal instead. By the last 12 hours of that Day I was certain that you weren’t scum, but I was nearly as certain that you weren’t town (there was a small bit of doubt that you might have been town, but I was fairly sure you were 3rd party). What I hadn’t decided yet was if killing you hurt the town more than it helped the town. I think if you have truthfully claimed you would have been dead without question, but if you had truthfully claimed to be PFK or generic 3rd party you might have survived. There were enough of us in the game who believe that lynching 3rd party early is a mislynch that you would have gotten off the hook.
I wish I had been around at the end of the Day, I would have likely changed my vote to Hal.
And to those who questioned why I wanted the masons to claim:
It wasn’t so I wouldn’t accidentally investigate a mason, it was so the doctor wouldn’t have to waste their time protecting a mason, particularly one who is playing as anti town as pedescribe. Pede and Hawk are doing more to lead the town into the scums hands than anyone else in the game. Hell, if I could have lynched Hawk after he was dead and started posting in the game again I would have. This hasn’t been a good game for either of them. Had the other masons claimed I would likely still be alive, and Diggit probably would be too and town would be in much better postition.
I hope that mine and peeker’s role in this game, if nothing else, sets a precedence for town giving a lot more consideration to PFKs before lynching them. Although, I suppose PFK isn’t an accurate term, since that necessarily implies exclusive wins as opposed to non-exclusive wins. Or has PFK just become synonymous with third-party regardless of win condition?
As has come up in other games, I can’t agree here. A PFK is dangerous to the town if he can kill or if he is close to his win condition. As I said, the only evidence that I could kill was my admitted attempt against Cookies, but considering that all of the other kills on the other Nights had simpler explanations, I don’t think that there was enough evidence to believe I would kill. As added incentive, I had given enough reason, I think, that I wouldn’t be killing the following Night either, since I’d already said I’d use another power (nevermind that it wasn’t exclusive of other powers, they didn’t need to know that) and I was planning on using a non-killing power. So, the only reason I’d have for attempting a kill that Night is if I were one kill away from my win condition.
On a win condition note, if storyteller had designed a PFK that could steal the town’s win in four Nights with imperfect play, then he did a bad job setting up the game. Maybe it’s a bit meta-gamey, but really, with a game the size of this one, four Nights is pushing it, even with perfect play and a lot of luck, so considering that, if I were a killing role, which is what they all thought I probably was, and that I clearly had failed on at least one Night, any threat of me killing the following Night should have been pretty much gone.
So, I had zero incentive to kill that Night and I had virtually no threat of acheiving an exclusive win condition. Sure, I probably needed to be lynched, but lynching me should not have been a priority. Besides, I was providing information to the town, and I would need to keep doing so if I wanted to stay alive AND considering that the scum would have no idea I couldn’t target them, and not knowing if I was actually PFK or a pro-town role, it’s not completely unbelievable that the scum, not willing to play the chicken game with the Doctor, could have targetted me; very unlikely, yes, but not completely unbelievable.
I suppose this is a matter of perspective. But, like I said, I really think JSexton gets a lot of the blame/credit for my lynch. I think if the hysteria hadn’t been built up like it had, looking just at the evidence, it was basically the same against us, but I was almost certainly not scum, and given the reasons I listed above, I just don’t think killing a PFK in that situation is advantageous to the town. Of course, YMMV.
I was going to post when I did anyway. I would have posted sooner in the Day, but my schedule didn’t permit. What I meant though, was that if I’d had more time between when I’d first posted and when I’d get lynched, I probably would have been able to get out of the lynch. Hell, I’d gone from far and away the lynch candidate to almost tied in the time I had, so another 24 hours or so, and I think I could have convinced enough people that I could have made it. I almost gave up a couple hours before, but I’d hoped MHaye may vote in my favor.
