Ex-Gay Ministries?

[Polycarp]

In off-board discussions with another member, the question of whether “ex-gay ministries” do any good and what they’re all about came up.

To lay a little groundwork for people who aren’t familiar with the concept: in the view of conservative Christianity, homosexuality (the orientation as well as the acts) is the product of a dysfunctional personality. Since God is all-powerful and benevolent, and wants all people to turn to Him, He must be able to “heal” repentant gay sinners of their gayness. So several leading Christian Right groups have set up ministries that help gay people who have turned to Christ “get over being gay.”

For most clear-thinking people of liberal leanings, including not a few Christians, such programs are massive failures. They recognize the truth in the virtually universal testimony of gay people that gayness is not something they chose, but something they found they were, and are powerless to change, even if they want to, no matter how much sincerity and effort they may place in it.

To be sure, there are some case histories that suggest successful “conversion” to straightness. In most such cases, apparently, the people were bisexual and able to suppress the homosexual aspect of their orientation. And there are other “ex-gays” who state (I believe honestly) that they still struggle with desires for other men (or women, in the case of Lesbians) but “know that it’s against God’s will, and that He will give them the strength to resist temptation.”

I’d like to lay two ground rules for this thread, both intended to enable civil debate:

1. The opinions of persons (particularly Christians), pro and con, about what God wants or doesn’t want, what He can do and what He does, and so on, will be treated respectfully. They can be disagreed with, and forcefully, to be sure, but their expression is not to be the occasion for a tirade on how the poster expressing them hates other people.
2. The testimony of gay people on what they feel and do not feel, what they can and cannot do, are not subject to pre-emptive override by someone else. The bottom line here is that “I and I alone am the sole authority on my feelings, abilities, and limitations.” A third party’s belief in what God can and cannot do is not sufficient grounds to condemn the honest statement of what a person feels is possible or not.

Because this is such a hot-button issue, I’m requesting that the mods. enforce those two rules I invented fairly strictly, or else close the thread if it trainwrecks. I know I’m not entitled to make rules for the board – but I think some intelligent dialogue can be accomplished if they are abided by by all posters who choose to participate, and that the potential for flaming and trainwreck is very high if they are not. So I’m asking all participants in this thread to abide by them and for the Mods. to accept them as additional rules applicable to this thread, at OP request. I hope that’s satisfactory to all concerned, and not seen as an unreasonable assumption of a non-existent power on my behalf.

[stpauler]

Is this considered been there done that?
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70400

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58870

[Hickory6]

I don’t have a problem with such ministries. Obviously, they’ve been effective for SOMEONE.

I don’t buy the general argument that noone can help being gay. I’m sure some people are borne with that prediliction and have no desire to change and no amount of counseling or ministering will alter what seems to have been genetically hard-wired.

But I also don’t see why other people’s mileage can’t vary. I don’t see why different people can’t be gay for different reasons.

As a loose analogy (and I do not mean to imply that being gay should necessarily be considered a pathology), I would suggest that the reasons people are gay may be as varied as the reasons people, say, suffer from depression.

Some people are depressed due to a chemical imbalance in the brain to which they were genetically predisposed from birth.

Others are not so genetically predisposed, but may have suffered some tragedy or heartbreak. This is not their baseline, this is not their norm. Their depression is a reaction to circumstance.

In the latter case, the goal would be to restore them to their normal (i.e., nondepressed) mode.

Similarly, there may well be cases where homosexual behavior is rooted not in a genetic predisposition, but in a reaction to circumstance–say, a sexual addiction, a misplaced rebellion, a sexual trauma, a desire to hurt a spouse, etc.

If someone believes that this is the case with them, and seeks the support of such a ministry, and feels that such a ministry has helped them change their lives for the better, has helped them save their marriages, saved their family, etc., then who am I to tell them no?

And who is anyone else?

Granted, there will be those who feel threatened by the fact that some have found help in those kinds of ministries to gays. They themselves are taking quite a bit of shelter in the idea that they have no choice, that they can't help themselves, that it's nature, not nurture.

I think they need to learn to deal with it, and get out of other people’s way. If you don’t like gay ministries, don’t seek them out. When one approaches, politely say ‘no,’ and get on with life.

Looked at another way, if the choice to live in the gay lifestyle is valid, then it follows that the choice to leave it and seek marriage must be equally valid, as well.

[Lamia]

*Originally posted by Hickory6 *
**I think they need to learn to deal with it, and get out of other people’s way. If you don’t like gay ministries, don’t seek them out. When one approaches, politely say ‘no,’ and get on with life.
**

If you’re a teenager who has been targeted by one of these groups, or handed over to them by your parents, it can be a little more difficult to just say “no” and get on with your life.

As reprehensible as I find these organizations I can’t say that adults don’t have the right to form or join them, but they should not be allowed to prey upon vulnerable and confused young people. Funny how these people might themselves be inclined to say that it’s homosexuals who shouldn’t be allowed to prey upon vulnerable and confused young people, but I don’t know of any homosexual organizations that go after teens and try to brainwash them into adopting the “gay lifestyle”.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Imagine the public outcry if parents were allowed to turn over their straight teens to gay groups for “reorientation.”

[Hickory6]

They already are, if they choose to. Life goes on. Deal with it.

[Padeye]

I have a real problem with ex-gay ministries. A little background information. I had a diverse religiuous upbringing, everything from Roman Catholic catechism to Southern Baptist with some interesting stops along the way. My brother came out when my family was S.B. I don’t have to explain how they tried to “help” him. We’re lucky it didn’t drive him to suicide. The experience drove the family away from church for a long time.

When I decided to start going to church again I visited an evangelical Lutheran church that is also a reconciling in Christ congegation. That means we accept and affirm all believers regardless of among other things sexual orientation and marital status. That’s not just “don’t ask, don’t tell” but inclusion in all parts of worship on both sides of the altar. W’ve been without a permanent pastor for over a year because it’s hard to find a pastor willing to face the challenges we have. The ELCA’s official position is still that a gay pastor must be celibate.

I want to go into a rant here but I’ll stop before I do. Gays and lesbians are not “broken” and don’t need to be fixed. They are God’s children as much as anyone else.

[MrVisible]

From this page on the subject:

AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION

* "There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989).
* "There are a few reports in the literature of efforts to use psychotherapeutic and counseling techniques to treat persons troubled by their homosexuality who desire to become heterosexual; however, results have not been conclusive, nor have they been replicated. There is no evidence that any treatment can change a homosexual person's deep-seated sexual feelings for others of the same sex.
* "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so."

AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION

* "Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental illness and there is no scientific reason to attempt conversion of lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation, some individuals may seek to change their sexual orientation or that of another individual (for example, parents seeking therapy for their child). Some therapists who undertake this kind of therapy report that they have changed their clients' sexual orientation (from homosexual to heterosexual) in treatment. Close scrutiny of their reports indicates several factors that cast doubt: Many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective on sexual orientation, rather than from mental health researchers; the treatments and their outcomes are poorly documented; and the length of time that clients are followed up on after treatment is too short.
* "In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works and that it can do more harm than good. Changing one's sexual orientation is not simply a matter of changing one's sexual behavior. It would require altering one's emotional, romantic and sexual feelings and restructuring one's self-concept and social identity.
* "Although some mental health providers do attempt sexual orientation conversion, others question the ethics of trying to alter through therapy a trait that is not a disorder to an individual's identity.
* "Not all gays and lesbians who seek therapy want to change their sexual orientation. Gays and lesbians may seek counseling for any of the same reasons as anyone else. In addition, they may seek psychological help to come out' or to deal with prejudice, discrimination and violence.
* "For nearly three decades, it has been known that homosexuality is not a mental illness. Medical and mental health professionals also now know that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be altered. Groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called conversion therapy' are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help."

AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS

* "Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Counseling may be helpful for young people who are uncertain about their sexual orientation or for those who are uncertain about how to express their sexuality and might profit from an attempt at clarification through a counseling or psychotherapeutic initiative. Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
* "Pediatricians should be aware that some of the youths in their care may be homosexual or have concerns about sexual orientation. Caregivers should provide factual, current, nonjudgmental information in a confidential manner."
* "The psychosocial problems of gay and lesbian adolescents are primarily the result of societal stigma, hostility, hatred and isolation. The gravity of these stresses is underscored by current data that document that gay youths account for up to 30 percent of all completed adolescent suicides. Approximately 30 percent of a surveyed group of gay and bisexual males have attempted suicide at least once. Adolescents struggling with issues of sexual preference should be reassured that they will gradually form their own identity and that there is no need for premature labeling of one's sexual orientation."

AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

* "Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an unaccepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy (a behavioral or medical intervention which pairs unwanted behavior, in this case, homosexual behavior, with unpleasant sensations or aversive consequences) is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians. Through psychotherapy, gay men and lesbians can become comfortable with their sexual orientation and understand the societal response to it." 

It’s an excellent page, full of fascinating facts.

I have no problem with any ministry that follows the American Psychiatric Association’s Guidelines for Psychotherapy with Lesbian, Gay, & Bisexual Clients. They include such things as:

* Guideline 1.  Psychologists understand that homosexuality and bisexuality are not indicative of mental illness.

* Guideline 2.  Psychologists are encouraged to recognize how their attitudes and knowledge about lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues may be relevant to assessment and treatment and seek consultation or make appropriate referrals when indicated.

* Guideline 3.  Psychologists strive to understand the ways in which social stigmatization (i.e., prejudice, discrimination, and violence) poses risks to the mental health and well-being of lesbian, gay, and bisexual clients.

• Guideline 4. Psychologists strive to understand how inaccurate or prejudicial views of homosexuality or bisexuality may affect the client’s presentation in treatment and the therapeutic process.

Show me an ex-gay ministry that conforms to these guidelines, and I’ll be behind them 100%.

Here is a good article which tells about a gay man’s personal experience with ex-gay ministries.

“He may say it’s up to God,” says Upchurch, “but they teach that it’s all dependent on the individual - how much you pray, read the Bible, go to counseling. It’s all directed at you actively trying to change the way God made you, and when that doesn’t happen, it leaves you depressed and vulnerable. There were several times I strongly contemplated suicide, and that’s true of many people I’ve talked to who were once involved with ex-gay ministries.”

And, to round things off, here’s a collection of quotes from ex-gay ministries. Some of my favorites:

Michael Johnston, head of Kerusso Ministries (an “ex-gay” conversion center): "You know, really, when you think about it – let me just be blunt here – when an individual ‘comes out’ and proclaims their homosexuality, really, what they are doing is standing up and saying, ‘I’m a sexual deviant, and I’m proud of it.’ " - Oct 16, 96 - Family Research Council Web site, http://www.frc.org/net/st96j3.html

Jane Boyer, Board Member of Exodus Ex-Gay Ministries: “lesbian love is a counterfeit, it’s a lie, and we are far too easily pleased with a counterfeit. And that is what the gay community – that is the deception, is that when they turn to homosexual behavior, when they turn to these gay relationships, it doesn’t fill. It gives the illusion of being satisfying. But it really doesn’t. It really doesn’t.”- Oct 16, 96 - Family Research Council Web site, http://www.frc.org/net/st96j3.html

“Basically, the homosexual, let’s say the political gay community, is out to destroy the traditional marriage, heterosexual marriage, that God has designed for us.” - Anthony Falzarano http://www.frc.org/net/st96d2.html

“Basically, homosexuality is a neurosis. It’s healable, it’s treatable. We are ministering to 6,000 former homosexuals in the Exodus network. Basically, homosexuality is a stunting of psychosexual growth. They are children inside, and any parents out there – you know, when your kid is spoiled, he’ll keep coming at you and keep coming at you and keep coming at you until you give him a whack on the bottom and say, ‘Enough!’ and then the child will stop.” - Anthony Falzarano, http://www.frc.org/net/st96d2.html

My point being, perhaps some gay people would benefit from therapy that would allow them, if it was possible and desirable to the gay person, to change their sexual orientation. Perhaps. But the ex-gay movement isn’t doing that; it’s built upon the condemnation of homosexuals and homosexuality, and it isn’t trying to help anyone; it’s just trying to make people conform to the twisted ideals of repressive fundamentalist Christianity.

To sum up, I’d like to present this article from The Onion: “Church Group Offers Homosexual New Life In Closet”

[Apos]

I’ve never much cared whether or not gay people can change their orientations or not. To me, the only real issue is whether or not gay relationships are free of outside coercion, mutually beneficial, and loving. If they are, and I have every reason to believe they can be, then I don’t care if it’s a deep-set identity or a thoughtless whim: there’s nothing wrong with it, in and of itself, and those arguing that it should be changed if possible are flatly in the wrong.

I think the idea that “it wasn’t chosen” has arisen as a defense against is that it appeals to a just God: a God who wouldn’t make people one way and then demand they be another. As a theological defense, however, this is ridiculously weak, especially because it appeals to a conception of God many fundamentalists don’t share.
The real action is simply in the argument over whether it is, in fact, moral. If it’s truly immoral, then no amount of complaining about how God made you that way (however true!) is going to make any difference. If it’s immoral, then it’s wrong no matter how unfair or unjust that might be to you personally, with a perchance for it. I’ve touched on this before in the “love the sinner, hate the sin” thread. The real issue is not “can I really change?” but “why should I have to in the first place?”

That said, most of the testimony of religious ex-gays I’ve heard sounds a lot like the sort of testimony I might give if tommorow I became convinced that my deepest and most important value in my life was to please the wishes of the almighty Liberace and only be in gay relationships from now on. “Sure,” I would say, “images of giggling ta-tas may jump unbidden into my head to distract me while I’m trying to gently practice-peck Steve on the cheek, but I try not to dwell on them…” In short, I don’t doubt that these people can make themselves be in, and even come to enjoy, their straight relationships if that’s what they truly desire to seek… but even they seem to implicitly admit that it’s a neverending process of constant watchful control, sublimation, and straining against their natural emotional responses. That may be a change in the sense of chosen behavior and lifestyle… but does it really put the lie to the idea that who we are attracted to is unchosen? Not really.

[lynn73]

I’d just like to humbly voice the opinion that I think any Christian church that has these kinds of ministries to gays is showing that they do love the homosexual, yet at the same time they’re not compromising what they believe to be the truth of the Bible. This is a far cry from people like Fred Phelps. I got to thinking about this awhile ago when I happened to see Jerry Falwell on Phil Donahue and they got into the subject a little bit and Mr Falwell said his church had a ministry to gays and lesbians.

Of course, the bottom line here is that a person has to want the help. If a gay person isn’t interested in changing and sees nothing wrong in what he or she is doing, then you can’t force the person. I see the ministries as being for those who are struggling, want help in resisting and believe it isn’t right. In my view anyway, these ministries are a good thing. They’re being honest with the homosexual about what the Bible says and at the same time supporting and helping them to leave this lifestyle and doing it in love.

I’ve found some websites on the subject of Christian ministries to gays and testimonies of former homosexuals if anyone cares to check it out.

http://www.mcjonline.com/news/news3553.htm

http://www.mtio.com/fsm/seven.htm

www.christianhealingmin.org/homosexuality.htm

http://www.newhope123.org/

http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/06-10-00/national_1.asp

I’ve got a few more but I’ll quit. I’m interested in what other Christians views are on ex gay ministries and testimonials of ex homosexuals.

[Mangetout]

My feeling on the whole issue is that these organisations are actually harmful - I do believe it is generally false to say that a person can have ultimate control over their own orientation and therefore I would argue that ‘curing’ a person of their sexuality could be quite dangerous psychologically - IANAPsychologist, of course, but expecting a person to live in denial can’t be a good thing.

I really don’t understand why Christians seem to want to control the ethically neutral actions of others. I just don’t get it.

[vanilla]

In my former church, we had a deacon who said he’d been gay, God changed him and he’s been married for over 10 years.
I know him and his wife, they are nice people.
Was he really gay before/ I don’t know.
Does he feel no attraction anymore?
I don’t know that either.
I can only take him at his word.
I guess it Could happen.
It seems to ME, however, that gays only want to “stop being gay” because of pressure from their church, has any atheist ever wanted to stop being gay? i wonder.

[cuauhtemoc]

There are people in this world whose greatest satisfaction comes from following what they believe to be God’s word as laid out in the Bible. If they believe that the Bible says all gay relationships are wrong, and their natural sexual orientation is homosexual, then they’re going to derive satisfaction from denying themselves gay sex. (Not denying that they are gay, because I don’t think any good can come of that, just abstaining from gay sexual relations in opposition to their physical and emotional desires).

This is a “best-case scenario” for the ex-gay ministries. My unscientific opinion is that only a very small number of people are such who could benefit from reorientation therapy. I think most people derive more satisfaction from their human relationships, sexual and otherwise, than from following every single obscure passage in the Bible literally.

Yes, I know antigay Christians don’t follow every passage, just selected ones that affirm their worldview.

[senor]

Hola!

I could care less what you screw as long as it’s not a child or an animal. We all choose our sexual orientation growing up, it has nothing to do with genetics.

Senor

---

The ugliest thing in the world is square dancing.
The real Senor Boogie Woogie

[lynn73]

*Originally posted by vanilla *
**In my former church, we had a deacon who said he’d been gay, God changed him and he’s been married for over 10 years.
I know him and his wife, they are nice people.
Was he really gay before/ I don’t know.
Does he feel no attraction anymore?
I don’t know that either.
I can only take him at his word.
I guess it Could happen.
It seems to ME, however, that gays only want to “stop being gay” because of pressure from their church, has any atheist ever wanted to stop being gay? i wonder. **

I did forget to say that there are a lot of gays who have come out of that and are now happily married to members of the opposite sex and have families. I don’t think that all of them want to stop being gay just because of pressure from their church. As in the testimony of one of the links I posted, the person simply said after becoming a Christian and then falling back into that life, they came to know they could not be a Christian and continue that lifestyle. I think that this happens not necessarily by just church pressure, but by the convicting of the Holy Spirit to the person’s heart. That’s my view anyway.

[UDS]

*Originally posted by senor *
. . . We all choose our sexual orientation growing up, it has nothing to do with genetics.

Well, good to have that age-old debate conclusively and authoritatively determined.

[vanilla]

*Originally posted by His4ever *
** As in the testimony of one of the links I posted, the person simply said after becoming a Christian and then falling back into that life, they came to know they could not be a Christian and continue that lifestyle. **

What do you lifestyle? Isn’t being gay what they are?
Then what? Could they stop being a christian?
Are you aware there are gays who say they are christian?
What if God Doesn’t change them?

[Padeye]

*Originally posted by His4ever *
As in the testimony of one of the links I posted, the person simply said after becoming a Christian and then falling back into that life, they came to know they could not be a Christian and continue that lifestyle.

Emphais mine.

His4ever, what exactly do you mean by “that lifestyle?” I think this is one of the things that leads the debate astray. A lot of people think a gay lifestyle means promiscuity and multiple partners. No Christian will argue that isn’t a sin but it’s no more so than heterosexual promiscuity and adultery. How many gay people do you know who are in committed, monogamous relationships?
My church hosted a state synod conference on human sexuality a few years ago. We even had a speaker from ex-gay ministries who trotted out a “poster child” for the horrors of the gay lifestyle. This man had been abused as a child and actually suffered some mild brain damage. He started seeking sex partners as a teenager in bookstores and peep booths and eventually contraced HIV.

I think we can all agree that seeking anonymous sex partners in a porn theater is a bad thing. Why was he doing it? Is it entirely possible that because he was sho shunned as a homosexual that he felt it was the only way he could find a substitute for intimacy? If there was no stigma with a healty homosexual relationship he probably would not have gone down that path.

I know you don’t agree but many Christians don’t agree with your interpretation of the bible on homosexuality. I’m aware of what Leviticus says but we live under a new covenant. I’m sure you follow all the rest of the holiness code, I’d hate to think you speak in church or wear mixed fibers If homosexuality was the terrible sin so many Christians like to think it is don’t you think it would have been included in the ten commandments? Wouldn’t have been included in the Jewish laws for righteous gentiles (the name eludes me here). Don’t you think it would have occured to Jesus to mention it even once?

[stpauler]

*Originally posted by vanilla *
**
It seems to ME, however, that gays only want to “stop being gay” because of pressure from their church, has any atheist ever wanted to stop being gay? i wonder. **

Sure, when I was 15 my dad was hypnotized out of smoking (that lasted a week) but during that week I thought that if it worked for smoking, maybe I could get hypnotized out of being gay. So, as an atheist, the volition at one point was there.

The whole ex-gay ministry thing just makes me roll my eyes, but it just comes down to a person’s decision in life. IMHO the person should tell their opposite sex partner that they’re “changed” so when recidivism catches up, their partner isn’t surprised.

[Padeye]

I should search first. According to zev_steinhardt the Noahide commandments apply to gentiles and they come from Jewish tradition, not the Torah.