Ex-Gay Ministries?

Great Debates
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Check out Episode 3 from this link.

Ex-Gay Ministries is a farce. They have as little to do with changing orientations as the inclusion of gay people in society have in changing straights.

Not only is it a farce, but it is also abusive. This is a link that contains much of their lies and spew.

Baltimore’s City Paper’s story about Ex-Gay ministries.

38 page PDF file from HRC on how "Love and Acceptance have saved us from EX-Gay Ministries. Contains many personal testimonials about the farce of Ex-Gay Ministries.

The links can go on forever. For every person they save, many of which say that it doesn’t work —Proof that it doesn’t work when a leading proponent is caught in a gay bar — they do irreperable damage to countless others.

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And those countless married men sometimes still cruise gay bars for anonomous casual sex.

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and some of them weren’t strictly homosexual, but were bisexual and are choosing women over men - for life, or for the time being.

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Of course, I know there are gays who say they’re Christian. God isn’t going to force a change on them, they have to want it. What about the gays who say they’re Christian and have realized they can’t be both? Are they mistaken? Not in my humble opinion, anyway. It’s ok if you differ.

Padeye, I realize the difference between promiscuity whether a person is gay or straight. I think it’s wrong whether the gay person is faithful to a monogomous relationship or not because of what I read in the Bible, not just the Old Testament either. Anyway, as it relates to ex gay ministries I still think it’s a very good thing they’re doing. And I don’t believe all the testimonies of ex gays can be explained away by their being bi sexual or having some mental problem.

Believe it or not, some just come to realize that they can’t continue havng same gender sex if they want to be Christians. And I’m not attempting to jab at the homosexuals on the board who consider themselves Christians. If they’ve made their choice, then they must live with whatever comes from that choice. Just my opinion, that’s all. I know there are many diagreements.

Question: Are some gays hostile towards ex gay ministries and testinonies of ex gays because it shows that gays can come out of that lifestyle? And by lifestyle I mean having same gender sexual intercourse. Just something I wondered about.

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MrVisible: A good summary of your position, and I agree.

His4Ever: “I see the ministries as being for those who are struggling, want help in resisting and believe it isn’t right. In my view anyway, these ministries are a good thing.” I agree with your second sentence, to the extent that your first sentence is true of a given ministry.

I have no moral/ethical issue with those who have sincerely come to believe, with some effort at considering the facts and the arguments, that heterosexuality is God’s favored “mode” for the human being, and that faithful human beings are bound to do what they can to avoid the alternative (within such limits as may be set by other parts of their faith). I myself do not so believe; and I have found that many believers, when they try to “justify” their beliefs, engage in a specious and ill-informed kind of argumentation–neither logical nor intellectually honest.

Yet “many” is not “all.” And in any event, articles of faith are not usually put on the table as logical resultants in the first place. God can make anything true if he wants to; maybe he wanted the temptation to minority sexual preferences to function as some kind of test.

Maybe.

If these ministries are, essentially, support groups (on the AA model?) for those tempted to gender sin, they may do little or no harm, and may even do some good…Because those who honestly and voluntarily seek them out are already well beyond the point of considering whether homosexuality might be, after all, a thing to accept and move on with. It’s important to them, to their world-view and sense of themselves, that they define their gayness as a sinful temptation against which they struggle mightily. To rip out the stitches and insist on a thorough reexamination of the issue at such a late point in their development is something only the individual himself has a right to ask OF himself.

IMHO the real issue lies elsewhere. It’s one thing for such a ministry to advertise its availability and minister to those who come to it. It’s another thing to proselytize and promulgate a message that might easily be interpreted as the unfounded MEDICAL claim that homosexuality is not a basic sexual orientation, but rather something like a bad and deeping-ingrained habit–or something like alcoholism. And that fosters prejudice: a good reason not to encourage it, in addition to the lucky fact of its being false.

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Hmm, speaking for myself, it’s equivalent of a parent insisting that their kid is going to grow up and be President of the USA. I just nod and smile and laugh behind their back. I think the odds are about the same.

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This is somewhat a personal issue for me, as I am a Christian and have Christian gay friends and, recently it was discovered a family member as well. I really find ministries like this disturbing, in that they never really seem to have the person’s best interest at heart, they are focused on changing them, for better or worse. It is interesting to note that the people who run these ministries are often the same people who are most afraid of homosexuals “perverting the children, luring or converting children to their side” (not an exact quote, but ideas I have heard these groups express.) It seems that they really think homosexuals are actively working to get more on their side, so to speak, or purposefully attacking mainstream morality for their own benefit. They feel that sexuality is a choice, and they are trying to convert people to heterosexuality, and are afraid of homosexuals because they think they are doing the same thing, hence many try to keep gays out of influential positions or leadership roles, especially where children are involved.

When a (now ex, but not for any reason explained here),friend came out to me a few years ago, I was happy for him, and he seemed happy, but was very afraid to tell his conservative Christian family. He seemed happy that summer and to me, relieved to have it out. After a while, I think he started to realize that his family would never accept him, and talked to his minister a few times. Then suddenly one day, he announced he was back with his ex-girlfiend and they were engaged. He refuses to speak of that summer now, and if incidents are mentioned, denies it even happened. He is now married, and while I wish him happiness, I worry about their future.

I think these groups focus on changing behavior, and see a homosexual acting as a heterosexual as a victory, regardless of what it is doing to that person inside. I wonder how many ‘graduates’ of these programs are tormented inside, but putting up a good front. I wonder how they feel when the programs do not work, and they still have feelings for their own gender. I wonder if they feel that God does not care about them enough to change them, too, or that if they were a better person, they could be healed like the others.

I am all for therapy to help homosexuals deal with issues they may face, and if they are religious, therapy based on their religion. I do not think it benefits anyone to try to push heterosexuality. I do not believe any person who is brave enough to come out to a Christian community should feel coercion. It is hard enough! They know they are being judged! They need to know God loves them. It is between them and God.

I am also tired of the examples these groups give of homosexuality. It always involves promiscuity, and behaviours that the Christian community would consider immoral of anyone, gay or straight! Ok, I can understand them having a problem with a gay man sleeping around, they would also have a problem with a straight person doing the same thing. Why do they highlight it as a homosexual behavior? Have they never seen anyone in a committed, monogomous, homosexual relationship?

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Thanks for the thoughts on the subject.:cool:

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I think a more pertinent question would be, has any atheist who is in a supportive environment where their homosexuality is not condemned ever wanted to stop being gay?

Oh, and H4E,

Are some ex-gay ministries hostile towards some homosexuals because they’re jealous of the love they’ve found in the context of a healthy homosexual relationship?

Personally, the ex-gay thing ticks me off because it’s based upon the assumption that who I love is inherently bad, and because they trade on loathing and fear in order to make people conform to their narrow view of what’s normal, with no regard to the personal well-being or even safety of the people they’re trying to convert.

Meanwhile, can anyone come up with any reliable facts, or studies, about the success rates of ex-gay ministries? Anything as authoritative as the American Psychiatric Association or the American Psychological Association would be nice, because according to them, it doesn’t work. Anyone care to try a fact-based argument in favor of these ministries? Or are facts irrelevant in the face of faith?

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I can’t speak for anyone else, but any hostility I feel towards ex-gay ministires is due to their tendency to prey upon young people and the sad fact that some employ methods that may fairly be called abuse, or even torture.

It may be that there are ex-gay ministires motivated by a sincere, if misguided, desire to help others in the true spirit of Christianity. But I know that there are ex-gay ministires with less noble motivations, because there is nothing Christian about imprisoning people or subjecting them to physical pain in an attempt to “cure” them of their sins.

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His4ever

Let’s put this in a way you can relate to. You are 15 years old and happily heterosexual. Your parents are some raging queens living on Castro Street in San Francisco and tell you that you are a wholly immoral person because you are gay everyday. Then one day, against your will, they ship you off to a reprogrammer camp where people will belittle you, tell you what a bad person you are constantly, and try to change who you are at the core of your being and don’t let you go until you are brainwashed enough to believe that you are really homosexual. You would pretty much despise the people who forced that upon you now, wouldn’t you? Also, do you think deep down that you would still believe that you were heterosexual; however, all the brainwashing makes you sick every time you think about being with a man. If you can’t identify with it, change heterosexual with christian and homosexual with non-christian.

Now onto this part of your statement…

That isn’t the point at all. It is easy enough to stop having gay sex but deep down you still know and love who you do. See the above point. Gay people are gay for the same reason straight people are straight. The hostility stems from the fact that ex-gay ministries preys upon gay youth and gay adults who have not come to grips with their full identity using techniques that are largely unsuccessful and completely contrary to what the American Psychiatric Association and other sane and credible sources have set as their standards.

They would be better suited and supported if their main purpose was to aid gays and lesbians to be comfortable with themselves as well as doing gay and lesbian community outreach on the normalcy of the GLBT community. However, what they do causes as much harm to the GLBT community as Fred Phelps but in a much more insidious manner. At least good old Fred doesn’t try to brainwash our youth into self-loathing husks of a human, he tries to do it directly and unsubtlely.

As for the happily married thing, I can’t tell you how many men at gay bars are actually married. I have seen too many of them with signs of wedding rings (ie, ring tan), who actually talk about their wife and kids, and do all sorts of other gay things behind their collective wive’s backs. I would estimate that on any given Friday night the local gay bars are filled with at least 10 if not 20 percent “straight” men who are married to women but shag men when they think they can get away with it. (The same link about the ex-gay person from above.)

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I don’t know how people who believe homosexuality is inherently sinful feel about the idea that human sexuality is a sliding scale a la the Kinsey scale with some people being exclusively heterosexual, others exclusively homosexual and others somewhere in the middle. His4Ever, if you’ve already said so elsewhere, I apologize, but could you tell me what you think about this and how others who share your views do?

Since I quite firmly do believe that sexuality is on a sliding scale, I wonder where those for whom these ministries have worked fall. I would guess the closer you are to the exclusively heterosexual end of the scale, the more effective they’d be.

Also, how far does this conversion go? If a person has exclusively heterosexual sex or no sex, but fantasizes about people of the same sex is it still a success? At the risk of getting too graphic here, how about fantasies about three-somes, etc.?

I’m leery of such ministries myself, and I wouldn’t be any happier with an old friend of mine walking out on his partner of the past 7 years because he’d “seen the light” and renounced homosexuality than I would be with another friend walking out on her husband because she’d “seen the light” and felt compelled to live a life of celibacy. On the other hand, I suppose such things do happen, and they may work for some.

CJ

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Hickory, be so kind as to explicate this comment. I think I’m upset by it, but I may be misunderstanding what you’re alluding to.

I want to emphasize CJ’s point that many people are in fact bisexual – in the broadest possible definition, most people are. (Yes, you – though you claim, with good grounds, you’re exclusively straight, remember that night in your teens that you and your buddy camped out and you were tempted to experiment?)

I think the overwhelming majority of ex-gay ministry “successes” are people who were bisexual, considered themselves “gay” in the same sense that society in general categorizes anybody who admits to any desire for someone of the same sex as “gay,” and were able to successfully submimate the homosexual aspect of their sexuality in a happy heterosexual relationship.

I’d also question strongly the assertion that you cannot be Christian and gay. Being a Christian means responding to God’s grace felt in your life by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and then trying to live out the life He calls you to, guided by the Holy Spirit. When God wants someone to quit being or doing something, the internal evidence for it will be unmistakable. And the opinions of the Church of God, the Southern Baptist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Episcopal Church, the Southern Baptist Church, the Roman Catholic Church, Focus on the Family, the 700 Club, or any other organization that calls itself Christian, are applicable only as they guide and influence the person to be open to the work of the Holy Spirit.

Which means that non-celibate gay people can accept that call of God and give their lives to Christ, and continue to be non-celibate gay people, and until and unless the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin in that regard, they are not to be condemned by anyone IMHO.

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Doesn’t work. Two of the biggest members of this ended up in a homosexual relationship with each other. From what I’ve read, it’s used mostly by gay christians as a way to meet other gays.

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from http://members.aol.com/exgaynomad/

In the book “the Church and the Homosexual” by John J. McNeill, which I just returned to the library, he mentions that most ex-gay ministries end up just meeting places for gay christians.

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I was unaware that some of these organizations practiced imprisonment or physical pain. I wouldn’t think a Christian ministry would want to do that. As I said earlier, the person has to want the help and support, they can’t be forced.

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I’ve not really heard much about a sliding scale for sexuality but I do agree that some have strictly hetero or homo feelings and I’m aware that some consider themselves to be bi. I’m not sure what to think about this. Of course, my views on sexuality haven’t changed any but it’s interesting to wonder about the ones who consider themselves to be bi or somewhere in between.

I haven’t heard so far from other Christians who believe as me, why people get or have these feelings or sexual orientations. I suppose some might say that it’s satan’s attempts to keep us confused about how sex is really supposed to work according to God. Or it could be from something that happened in a person’s childhood, such as bad treatment by one of the parents or family member of the opposite sex, that causes them to starting looking for affection from the same sex. Could be a combination, I don’t know.

38

MrVisible sits in front of his computer, reading quietly by the light of the monitor and a small lamp nearby. In the background, a Pete Yorn song plays quietly. He clicks on a particular thread, and reads. Shaking his head, he reads a certain post again.

He gets up from the high-backed leather desk chair, and heads to the living room, where he grabs his jacket off the back of a chair, pets one of the semi-sleeping dogs stretched out on the sofa, and goes out the front door.

Down the street a ways, a neighbor has been doing some construction. A nice cinderblock wall, surrounding their neat garden. It’ll probably be stuccoed in the next couple of days, but for now, it’s raw masonry. MrVisible arrives at the wall, a look of beatific relief on his face. He pauses a moment, his hand running over the rough textured concrete. Then, with pacific determination, MrVisible takes a few steps backwards into the darkened street, and charges, headlong, bull-like, towards the wall. His head impacts the cement with an audible thud, and one of the cinderblocks shifts backwards a fraction of an inch in the still-wet mortar.

MrVisible slides to the ground, unconscious, but with a look of complete, utter peacefulness upon his face. He won’t wake up for hours, and when he does, chances are that he won’t even remember the post he just read.

39

First things first. I’m a young, celibate, bisexual Wiccan. I believe there’s nothing wrong with same-sex relations, provided that the relationships are loving, free of any type of abuse, and generally positive (the same goes for heterosexual relationships). I’ve never been to one of those ministries, so I can’t tell you if they work or not, but I personally think they’re silly and useless. It’s like trying to convert someone who hates onions into an onion-lover. No matter how hard you try to convince them otherwise, they’re still not going to like onions. Food metaphors aside, I don’t believe that outside forces can change a person’s nature. They can influence it, but they can’t change it. This thread brings to mind the movie “But I’m a Cheerleader,” which not only pokes fun at ministries but shows that some people are gay and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

As for me, if I ever went to one of those ministries, I’d probably go mad. For one thing, if I’m in an explicitly Christian place I feel uncomfortable (it’s the I’m-the-only-pagan-here feeling that makes me feel unwelcome), and being told that I’m going to hell because of who I like angers me. How am I sinning if I don’t act on my fantasies? I’m completely celibate, I’m a good, polite, helpful, moral person, and you’re telling me I’m wrong because of what I like? That’s like telling a vegetarian they’re going to hell because they don’t eat meat. I don’t believe that. Any God I worship will love me as I am and NOT cast me out because of who or what I like, regardless if I choose to act upon my desires. I’m a good girl. I don’t deserve to suffer.

My parents don’t know that I’m bisexual (if they’ve figured it out, they’re keeping quiet about it), and I don’t plan on telling them. It’s none of their business. Sexuality isn’t a big part of my life, and being who I am isn’t hurting anyone, so I keep my life private. I don’t know how they’d feel if they found out, but they certainly wouldn’t send me to a ministry. They love me too much to put me through such torture, and they know how stubborn I am. Nobody can change me without my consent, and that’s the way things are going to stay.

takes a bow and steps off the box

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I wouldn’t think so either. I’m not a religious woman so perhaps I’m in no position to judge, but I don’t think that people who’d hurt people in order to “save” them can be very good Christians, and I don’t think they’re motivated by love or compassion but rather hate, fear, and ignorance.

Not all Christians are like that, not all Christians who disapprove of homosexuality are like that, and it may be that not even all ex-gay ministries are like that. But these people should realize that if many homosexuals and bisexuals seem a bit sensitive about the subject of ex-gay ministries and related issues it’s for good reason.