Amen, brother.
Here’s a question - why is it that all these “‘ex-gay’ ministries” are Christian-based? Funny how you don’t see non-religious, strictly medical programs like this - and the reason is, it’s charletanry (is that a word?). Harold Hill would be proud.
As for me, I’m not broken, so no need to “fix” myself.
Esprix
I’ll have to confirm this.
my former husband was a drag queen, and so I hung out in gay bars.
Many married men were customers, and liked to “get together” with some of the queens there for whatever they wanted.
They were called tricks.
I suppose they could be also called bisexual.
Going back a few years, there were secular medical programs in this country to try to ‘cure’ homosexuality (Alan Turing being a notable victim of this) - admittedly, it probably was based on predominantly ‘Christian’ ideas of morality.
Of course, going back an equal period of time from then, you’d find very similar methods being employed to try to ‘cure’ left-handedness.
This seems like more of an attempt to shape the debate than an attempt to “enable civil debate”. A person may be the sole authority on his or her feelings, but they are certainly not the sole authority on their abilities and limitations (and I’m skeptical even of the feelings part). In general, if someone does not want their feelings or assertions about themselves challenged, the proper approach is to refrain from making these the basis for their position in a debate, rather than insisting that no one can challenge them.
As for the issue itself, though I am inclined to think sexual identity is more fluid and influenced by sociological and other pressures than many would have you believe (as previously discussed here) this is probably mostly true at younger ages. By the time many people show up at these ministries it is probably too late for many of them to change.
But the same is also true of psychologists’ attempts to influence people’s feelings and behaviour. The record of these ministries is probably not very good, but has to be looked at in the context of any efforts to change people’s minds - none of these has a good record.
I guess the success of groups like these would be viewed differently depending on whether you believe sexuality is defined by your actions or your mentality. If I exclusively sleep with men, but am not attracted to them and secretly long for women, who would call me a heterosexual? I’m guessing that ex-gay ministries would point to me as a success story.
I have a family member who is in the process of divorce after a long marriage because it was discovered (he did not come out purposefully) he is homosexual. If his sexuality was able to be changed, why wasn’t it? He should have been shaped by his (conservative Christian) upbringing, and learned to like women after dating them exclusively and marrying one. he has never had a homosexual relationship, yet he knows he is a homosexual. He lived as a heterosexual but was not. This caused many people, himself and his family a lot of pain that could have been avoided. Yet some say know he should be in counseling, in a group such as one of these. What possible good could they do? What magic words could they say to him to make his feelings go away? Maybe they could cause him to feel guilty ( more so than he already does) enough to go back to his wife and continue to live out his life as a heterosexual, but who would believe that after so many years of him trying to suppress himself this would actually be a true change? Would he not then be living a lie, deceiving his wife? Is that better than admitting the truth? I have seen too many cases like this, where people have tried to deny who they are, want with all their soul to make their feelings go away, want to be ‘normal’, try to live the way others want them to live, and end up depressed and unable to keep it a secret forever.
Ministries like these have no real proof of success rates. Who is there 20 years later to witness the failed marriage? They are dangerous because they attract people who desperately want to change who they are, who want to believe they can be cured. They raise hopes and make promises they cannot deliver. They tell Christians they are not Christians, that God hates them. (Or loves them, but wants them to be different than themselves.) It is so frustrating to see people doing this in the name of God, and heartbreaking to know the people that think they have to change, but cannot.
Bring in transexuals, and things get even more confusing.
Being a passable young TS (well, that’s the closest definition for me anyway), I can say that the majority of males that hit on me specifically for the TS aspect were -straight-. Transexuals and drag queens are a fetish, and seem to appeal mostly to men who consider themselves completely straight, not bi (although I’m sure there’s some out there).
Christians seem to like controlling every aspect. I was raised in both Christian and Catholic environments, and they told you everything from what was okay / not okay to eat to whom you may or may not share a bed with. Hmm.
As for God, well… why did he make gay/bi folk in the first place, if he didn’t want them running around humping each other? I would think he would be glad for them, since they adopt kids that straight people have dumped or abandoned, save resources for other people’s kids when they adopt instead of having their own, etc. etc…
I do counseling at a center for LGBT youth, and I have to say… it helps. If anything, we can get them to come out of the closet and start turning their life around, to be who they are around whom they’re comfortable and perhaps eventually to the world, unsafe though it may be. Maybe it’s a bad way of looking at it, but I think of it as the band-aid theory; rip it off and get it over with. Better that they be who they are as soon as possible, instead of winding up in situations later on where they’re married, have kids, ending in a divorce with issues not only personal but social.
[aside to Velma]
I’ve been in the same situation as your family member. In fact both my ex-wife and I have come out of the closet. If he needs someone to talk with who understands what’s he going through, give him my email address. It’s in my profile.
Some have asked, in effect, “Why is this concern about sexual practices so endemic among Christians?”
It’s not. It’s just that in America we’re already pretty used to ignoring the opinions of Buddhists, Muslims, Krishnas, Shintos, Confucians, Aesthetic Realists, Scientologists, AynRandists et al; so we pay them no attention.
I do believe many of those who regard Mohammad as the Prophet of Allah have, shall we say, an “issue” with homosexuality.
I am not going to pretend to have any authority on this subject, but I am in fact a christian therapist who works in a completely christian environment. I do deal with different viewpoints on this issue with my collegues.
I do not agree with many of the ex-gay ministries simply because they use guilt and shame as tools for change. In doing this they have added more problems than a person originally came in with. Guilt and shame are brought on by the belief that they are inherently sinning through their every sexual thought and feeling. There is also a fear from “if you do not change you will go to hell”, and through this guilt, shame, and fear you will find your success stories. I can be just as affective in treating schizophrenia. If I tell a client that their voices are from the devil and they are demon possessed, they will stop telling me about the voices, and I have “cured” them. They may attempt to convince themselves and me that they don’t hear voices, but they are still there. The same can be true for homosexuals. If he or she says they are straight, than they are no longer sinning and have their success story.
On the other hand, if a person is just questioning or confused or reacting to some traumatic life event, talking through the issue may clear up some of the confusion and they may decide that they were not making the appropriate decision for their life. This person may also walk into an ex-gay ministry and become a success story. Whereas, this person was not really homosexual in the first place.
All of the research I have seen surrounding this idea show a great deal of testimonials, but very little actual research. The statistic of 30-70% is thrown around, but that isn’t even good statistic. 30% of persons with depression who are not treated will discontinue signs of depression. Also to say that 3 - 7 out of 10 people who come to this ministry are “cured” of being homosexual is not really saying anything. I would like to see a longer study of this type of ministry with follow-up over a number of years (20-30).
On a more personal level, since my best friend came out almost two years ago, I was put into a place where I had to decide how I felt personally about this matter not just clinically. I know that for him, this was a huge issue and he was afraid to admit he was gay because he didn’t want to be shunned by the church and his family. Because he could no longer deal with the lie, he did come out, but he has not been able to find a church or tell his family. This bothers me a lot. I am saddened by a church and organizations who are so quick to judge and condemn people on issues where it meets there ideals, and yet preaches and teaches love and compassion to all.
Send him to the Unitarian Universalists - there’s always a place for gay Christians at our table.
Esprix
I have never been gay, but when I was young, poor, confused and scared about religion. (Raised to think I was going to hell.)
I wondered into a Unitarian church. They were very intelligent, rich and nothing like me, but they treated me as an equal, answered my questions and allowed me to use their library to learn more. I will never forget them, they were true Christians.
Love
Leroy
H4E said, "Believe it or not, some just come to realize that they can’t continue havng same gender sex if they want to be Christians. "
I say they can be Christians or whatever they want to be…the fact that they aren’t accepted by the rest of the club has nothing to do with how they live and what they believe. The rest of the Christians don’t make the rules.
I believe that H4E may have been asserting that the spiritual process of conversion/salvation could bring about a work of God’s Holy Spirit, convicting the individual of personal sin (Including homosexual behaviour, (in the apparent opinion of H4E)). - There would be a distinct difference between this and any rules laid down by humans/churches.
Which is kind of amusing, since the majority of UU’s aren’t Christian. 
Esprix
I think you stated it pretty well, Mangetout. Concerning rules laid down by churches, I take that to be that the church just tells people what the Bible says about something. Of course, those who claim to be Christians and are members of a church, are open to discipline or confrontation by fellow Christians if they’re found to be involved or behaving in some sinful way in an ongoing, unrepentant manner.
2 Timothy 3:16
They were people of all faiths, one was Catholic, another
buddhist. It hardly came up in conversation, but each had their own beliefs, I remember the Catholic used to do his beads during service. When I said Christian, I meant the spirit of true Christianity, not necessarily what they professed. God is not religious in any way that I can tell.
Sometimes the minister gave the service from the Bible and sometimes from other literature, even current events. It was always related to loving and accepting others as equals. It was there I saw Viktor E. Frankl, author of “Man’s Search For Meaning” giving a seminar on the “Meaning of Life.” It was many years ago.
They were a diverse group who rejoiced and grew stronger in their diversity.
Yup - that’s why I’ve been UU for nigh on 15 years now. There’s even an “Ask the UU” thread (or two, I think) on the Dope.
We’re a fun bunch. 
Esprix
To me, the most infuriating thing about Exodus and some of the other organizations is that they boast success but refuse to allow their results to be studies. Sometimes they claim it’s due to “confidentiality”, which is as anybody who’s ever done psych research knows a crock- so long as you keep their identities confidential, you’re not betraying their right to privacy.
BTW, in case you’re interested in names for Googling, Michael Bussee was the Exodus co-founder who left the agency for another man. (Gary Cooper was the other man, and they did indeed meet at an Exodus retreat.) John Paulk was the president of Exodus who decided to “drop in and use the phone” at a business in D.C. that… DOH! just happened to be a gay bar. (Like most people who stop in to use the phone at a public establishment at night, Paulk bought a drink first.)
cjhoworth, what is the impact of sexual self-identification on these ministries? Will many people who are not exclusively homosexual come out and seek “help” through ex-gay ministries, or will they just try to focus on the aspects of their sexuality where they are heterosexual, try to avoid those that are homosexual and call themselves heterosexuals? I wonder how many people actually do go seek “help” in an environment that is not highly supportive of non-heterosexuals, or do they just identify as heterosexual? I have no idea how it really is, but I’m curious.
His4ever, I’m curious as to what you believe about celibate homosexuals. Let’s say that there was a person who was openly homosexual, but they also believed that it was sinful to engage in homosexual acts outside of a sanctioned union and thereby remained celibate. Would you accept that celibate homosexual as a fellow Christian? Would you accept them as a member of your church? Would you accept them as a clergyman? Also, would you consider it sinful for a gay man, for example, to kiss his boyfriend?
Well, let’s see…yes, I believe I could accept a celibate, non practicing homosexual oriented person (who has accepted Christ as Savior, of course) as a fellow Christian. I believe they could probably be a member of the church and a clergyman as long as they remain celibate and not give in to their orientation. Just as a single heterosexual Christian is supposed to be celibate while unmarried. Of course, Christians do slip and fall once in awhile, but it’s not the same as living a constant open unrepentant life of sinful activities. Don’t know if I’m being very clear or not.
As for a gay man kissing his boyfriend, I’m assuming you mean a lip kiss like men and women engage in. I’ve seem a few do it on TV, and it always repulsed me. It just doesn’t register to my beliefs or spirit as being right so I’d probably tend to see that as being wrong. I know the Bible says to greet one another with a holy kiss, but this is talking about brotherly love, not erotic love. Most likely a peck on the cheek.
It doesn’t say anything that I know of about men erotically kissing each other, BUT what does that kind of kissing usually lead to? The same as a man and woman kissing, it makes you desire physical intimacy. Lust, and in God’s eyes lusting for someone sexually is the same as actually doing it because you’ve committed the act in your heart. I can’t see it as right between members of the same sex.