By this logic, wouldn’t it also be sinful for any unmarried couple to kiss “erotically?” Should kissing be banned at high school dances?
I have no idea, Diogenes the Cynic. Only each individual couple knows how much kissing they can do before sexual arousal occurs. I would think it would be best to keep it to a minimum, without a lot of making out or petting. If couples at high school dances are sitting around making out and swallowing each other with their mouths, yes it should be banned. They’re there to dance, not kiss and make out.
And I consider any kind of romantic activity between 2 men or 2 women to be wrong. Men shouldn’t be mouth kissing men and women shouldn’t be mouth kissing women in my opinion, regardless of whether it leads to sex or not. I’m speaking of morality here, not legalities. As far as I know it’s not illegal for same sexes to romanically kiss each other.
Please compare and contrast that with a heterosexual who is a Christian and who has slept with his girlfriend several times before marriage, or a Christian who has been divorced and remarried several times. Aren’t these people “living a constant open unrepentant life of sinful activities”? Or would your contention be that they are simple “slipping and falling” time to time? I guess “Ooops!” Is allowed when you’re straight.
Let’s set up some really contrived hypothetical examples here.
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Bob and Jane (unmarried Christians, male and female) are sitting in Bob’s apartment. Bob and Jane kiss each other on the lips, with passion, no tongue. Is this acceptable?
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Bob and Al (unmarried Christians, both male) are sitting in Bob’s apartment. Bob and Al kiss each other on the lips, with passion, no tongue. Is this acceptable?
Also, what if your church had a candidate for pastor that stated openly that they struggled with homosexual orientation but would therefore remain celibate? Assuming that in prayerful contemplation you concluded that they were led by the Spirit to lead your congregation, would you consider this candidate to be a viable candidate for the pastorate?
Sorry for the barrage of questions, just rather curious where the lines are drawn as to homosexual orientation vs. activity. However, if you could accept someone as a Christian if they were homosexual and remained celibate, it appears that it would do more good to try to promote celibacy rather than actual changing of sexual orientation. If churches can promote celibacy among unmarried heterosexuals, would it be reasonable to do the same among unmarried homosexuals?
I don’t want to interfere with the “interesting” debate going on here at present, but let me suggest that, in Christian theology generally (as opposed to the personal views of some famous ascetics), lust !=sexual desire.
Lust is the misuse of sexual desire for individual personal gratification at the expense of another, who is objectified. Lust is the putting of sexual gratification before other “higher” commitments (which may be one’s walk with God, but may equally well be one’s promises in marriage). God approves of sex; according to the Bible, He invented it, and called it “good.”
In addition, something that I would think goes without saying: while a romance or a marriage includes sexual desire as a significant component, a romance or marriage is something substantially more than the sex that may or may not occur between the parties involved in it.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate on sex lives.
His4ever, since when has it become acceptable to demand a sacrifice from someone that you’ll never come close to having to make? It’s easy to say “oh, if he’s gay he should just stay celibate” when you know when such a thing will never be requried of you. What makes you think you have the power to preach something that you could never practice? Just because you read the Bible? That’s what’s wrong with these ministries. They’re promoted by people who would never have to be customers and they make it seem like potential clients have a “moral obligation” to use their services. I don’t know if any ask for money or not but if they do they should be sued. If you’re not gay, homosexuality is none of your business at all. Why have such a strong opinion on something that has nothing to do with you? Anti-homosexuality is not a main tennant of Christianity, you can be a good Christian without making a point to denounce gays at every chance. If a gay Chrisitian comes to the same conclusion you did and decides on celibacy, then that’s his own personal spiritual decision. And if he decides to tell other gay Christians to be celibate, he’s at a position to do so, because he made that sacrifice. But who are you to demand something out of strangers that you couldn’t give up?
Actually, by the literal reading of the texts in the manner which she advocates, then it was required of her to remain celibate after her first divorce. Conviently for her, though, the morals she applies to herself are more elastic than the ones she wishes to impose on others. Now on her third marriage - and I hope it is entirely fulfilling and happy - she is able to apply some elixir of “Grace” that magically wipes away the fact that she is in continual violation the prohibition on remarriage. Unfortunately for us homosexuals, no amount of “Grace” will cover our sins.
myself, i have been celibate for over 8 years now.
I find it quite easy, however, I tell no one who is having sex outside of marriage that thye are sinning.
I assume they’d probably look at me funny if i did.
His4ever, isn’t gays wanting to be hetero the same as blacks wanting to be white? assuming any do.
Can you see the problem with this?
God did create them gay, you know.
Just to drag this back to the OP, the discussion about “success rates” is the most telling - these programs simply don’t “work” for the vast majority of people who are lead to believe they need them (and for those few for whom it does appear to work, there seems to be a lot of controversy and disagreement over whether they’ve actually changed their inherent sexual orientation, are lying about it, or are bisexual and calling themselves straight).
And it’s not like this is a new thing - ex-gay therapies have been around for decades, and they’re still not working. How many lives have to be ruined before people say, “Hey - maybe this is all a bunch of hooey?”
Even those who think homosexuality is a sin have to see this eventually. Don’t they?
Esprix
Esprix wrote:
Probably not. As Jesus said, they look and look but do not see.
What changed my mind about homosexuality was you. One little e-mail, believe it or not. Maybe it was just the timing, but when I was in a deep depression, I opened your message and saw there God’s love and compassion for me.
Just as Jesus said of the Roman Centurian, “I have not seen faith like this in all of Israel,” so I said upon seeing your expression of concern for me, “I have not seen love like this in all of Christendom”.
God is love. Thus ended by prejudice against homosexuality.
Ooo, wow. Thanks, Lib. 
Esprix
Yes, there has been for quite a while an “ex-gay” program at Liberty University, Falwell’s school. In fact, there was a book written a while back by a man who had been through the program, and met his life partner there before escaping. Funny thing, he started the book while he was at the university, intending to champion the ex-gay movement. A random review of it… http://www.ecu.edu/org/bglad/dep/1998/adams1.html
I think that people can be very vulnerable to guilt and fear, tools used by the ex-gay movement. Consider how strongly some people love Jesus… now imagine loving Christ like that, and being persuaded that if you don’t change your sexual behavior, Jesus will abandon you. It’s not only a fear of hell, but the anxiety associated with losing that relationship, that the ex-gay uses to prey on people.
I think it’s terrible to twist someone’s mind like that.
Furthermore, I have lurked at a couple ex-gay forums/mailing lists, and the majority of people who post are not gay or ex-gay, but are family members (often parents) of gay people, trying to find ways to “fix” their kids… most of the time, their kids are adults who have left home, and these parents refuse to let their kids back into their lives as long as the kids are gay… it’s really depressing. They also participate in “prayer warfare”, where once a week, they time it so they all sit down over a list of gay “loved ones”, and chant a prayer to destroy the gay relationships and “heal them of their homosexual urges”. It’s like black magic, with a Christian spin. I happen to be on one of these lists, hence the lurking.
Of course, if any actual Wiccans or pagans were to cast spells for positive things to happen to those same Christians who engage in “prayer warfare”, the beneficiaries of those spells would have a fit of epic proportions.
The convolutions of morality that the hard Christian right has to go through to justify their hatred and interference in the lives of gay is amazing.
I am pagan, and I do put up my shields on that night of the week.
keira, I’ve got a couple of good friends who are Wiccan and have learned a great deal about their religion as a result. What you described, as I think you know, is spell work, and far closer to pagan tradition than Christian. Also, my take on it as a Christian is that asking for anything involving destruction is far closer to evil than good. Excuse me while I bring my hackles down.
lel, I wonder the same thing. Christianity probably saved my life and the life of a good friend of mine by being, at least in my case, the one thing in my life which told me I was any good, that I had any worth. If I’d received that message with the addition “but you’re wrong/evil/sinful because you’re a homosexual” I honestly don’t know what would have happened. As a teenager, I would have wondered “If not even God will accept me as I am, then what do I do?” Since I tried like mad to repress my sexuality anyway, I would guess that if I had been gay, I would have tried to repress it all the more. As it was, I did my best to convince myself I was asexual.
I believe prayer can work miracles; I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I also believe that miracles, by definition, are in line with God’s will. OK, so I’m using a standard copout by meaning “miracles as I define them are by definition.” I know there are people out there who I think misuse their sexuality; I’ve turned down a few. I don’t think misuse of sexuality is limited to homosexuals or heterosexuals. I have to admit that I do think prayer might cause someone to quit misusing his or her sexuality, but that could mean not having sex with someone else’s wife just as easily as it could mean not having sex with someone of the same sex. On the other hand, I consider guilt alone an ineffective teacher. A ministry can lead a person to see and take responsiblity for the consequences of his or her actions, and I am in favour of that. On the other hand, if the consequence is simply “you will burn in hell forever” for merely thinking of someone of the same sex in a sexual way, I can’t see it being truly effective.
Several years ago, back in Hawaii, I worked with a gay man at a tour desk which overlooked Waikiki Beach. When things were slow, he would point out good looking men to me. Now, these men were off limits to both of us because he had AIDS and I was way to straight and prudish to do anything with the guys on the beach, but both of us appreciated the view. Some of these ministries, I understand, would tell him his thoughts were sinful. Were mine any less so?
It’s been an interesting and educational discussion so far. Thanks folks.
CJ
Huh. I don’t doubt your statement, but remember the operative words in it are “Mr. Falwell said…” It’s a documented fact that he does not even practice the “Love your (next door) neighbor, even if he’s gay” idea taken literally. (I’m sure somebody will be quick with the cite for that one!)
The difference there, vanilla, is that your celibacy is voluntary – something you chose – and that there is a moral alternative available to you if you should choose differently – a good marriage.
Izzy, I’ve given thought to the objection you posted a few days ago, and I have to answer that while I may have been too broad-brush with that stricture, it was with good intentions, and I don’t know how else to get around the problem. Which would be, if I had not said that, that someone would state that their off-the-cuff third-party opinion that gay people choose to be gay and are too stubborn to change is equivalent to the testimony of every gay person I’ve ever talked to or read that the orientation was not a choice and that they are incapable of changing to be straight. That third-party opinion would then become the focus of angry posts from gay people, with eventual results resembling the final scenes of “The Ballad of Casey Jones” and “Equine Sadism for Dummies”
I agree. I am really appreciative of the high level of “light” and low level of “heat” that people have invested in this thread. Thank you all.
I agree, Polycarp.
I was not telling anyone they were sinning by not being celibate.
I am not the judge of who is sinning or isn’t.
But I am quite happy being celibate.
No, I don’t know. I can’t ever agree with that statement. In my opinion, God names it as a sin therefore He would not make anyone gay. That’s a contradiction of His word, in my opinion. Gayness may have several causes, but God isn’t one of them. And no matter what anyone says, I believe having sex with someone is a choice. No one holds a gun to anyone’s head saying you must have sex with this person.
I know that, dear – I was merely spelling out what you implied – that choosing somethng is not the same as having it forced on you, and that celibacy is a valid alternative for those called to it. The problem there is that I have no business saying that I think you ought to be celibate; the only person I have the right to make that decision about is myself. Same for you, Homebrew, His, and everybody else around these parts. What was it Tris was saying about how we tend to feel about our own sins as opposed to those of others?
My previous post beginning “I know that, dear…” was addressed to Vanilla.
His4Ever, I’m perfectly well aware you’re stating an opinion in that quote, but you’re ascribing stuff to my God that He didn’t say. Start with “homosexuality/gayness” – that’s an abstract noun defining a state of human affairs – the guy who created it was either Freud or Ulrich. Now, if you have not gotten this straight, “being gay” is a state of existence, including as a significant part the orientation of whom a person finds sexually attractive. It is not a sin, any more than you finding your husband attractive is sinful.
Now, is the only reason you stay with your husband that he’s a good fuck, a stud who can make you orgasm repeatedly? Sorry to be so blunt, but I’d have to assume that you love him, are committed to him in a permanent loving relationship, and that every aspect of your daily life involves him.
Now, take two gay men who love each other and have committed themselves to live together permanently. Never mind whether God approves of that or whether you or the state approve of it – how does what they feel differ from what you and your husband feel?
When you can get to the bottom of those questions, you may find it possible to actually behave as a Christian towards a gay person, and not come across looking like a Pharisee.
Good luck.