The OP has overlooked the MAJOR FACT that the ultimate result of the Blacks’ fight for their civil rights also benefitted other races.
Libertarian, unix, and Biggirl. . .thank you for your attacks, they were very thoughtful.
Lib, I know you do not speak for all Native Americans when you say they ‘choose’ the poverty, lack of social and health benefits, and the overall decline in their overall staus as a people. So, bullshit to you. Just becasue I am not descended from a Native American people does not mean I an ignorant of their poor standing in our society.
unix, I’ll check out the “Incident at Oglala,” (is that a song, poem or what? The examples I gave were off the top of my head, I said “Dances” due the scenes of cruelty shown against the Sioux by the US Army.
Biggirl, No I am not advocating anything of the sort. I am attempting to point out certain glaring examples of what many black political leaders call “institutional racism.” That the other racial minorities still suffer from early Anglo-centric negative steroetypes.
And you are wrong, up until the 1960’s, all those things you said were NOT privileges, WERE privileges. And to illustrate, when was the last time you saw an Asian or a NAtive American in a lead role not specifically gauged at their race or heritage? Wesley Snipes, Denzel, Chris Rock, etc. all play roles that are structured more as people, not JUST black people. That is rare as far as other racial minorities are concerned.
And as far as your idea that the income bracket minority, I rephrased to say ‘racial’ but I would agree with you if we were to talk about ANY minority.
I thank you for thinking me thoughtful. I did not attack you, however. I disagreed with you position and asked a few questions. If you are going conscrue all disagreement as attacks, then perhaps you should have opened this thread in The Pit.
This is quite true and I don’t believe needs pointing out.
Perhaps we need to define what you mean by privilge. Being a lead actor in a movie is not a right or immunity granted as a favor as per Merriam-Webster. Neither is not being called names you find offensive. Unless you think equal rights are privileges.
As I asked earlier: Would you like to debate whether or not blacks are the least discriminated against minority? That would be a very interesting debate, IMHO.
Nope. Typical white specimen, actually.
Keanu Reeves is half Asain.
But there’s a simple explanation for why black actors are cast in a larger variety of rolls. Blacks account for 25% of movie ticket sales in the United States, so they make up a sizeable portion of the total audience that Hollywood wants to cater to. I don’t what percentage of viewers are Asian American or Native American, but I’m willing to bet that it’s a lot less than 25%.
Fair enough Biggirl. I do not think that a privilege is equal treatment, it is a due priority. However, by saying blacks are the most priveleged minority, I wanted to bring up that blacks do have more ability to stop racism, where other racial minorities still endure. If we want to play semantics then maybe this discussion is not meant for black minds. Further, blacks maintain a victim mentality that limits their ability to see that they are perfectly capable of succeeding in ANY situation. Thus, many blacks will still say that THEY are the most desciminated against minority in America. Though not true, blacks, in my experience, tend to be less willing to look at reality from an objective viewpoint and see America as is. I have had this discussion with blacks before and they ALL think they are still the victims above anyone else.
I DO know racism. I come from the lilly-white Ohio suburbs. I tell my friends I am part Japanese and they tell my I am lying. That includes my black friends. I do not look like I am part Japanese, but I am. Still, not my black or my white friends believe me when I say it. I have to look them in the eyes, sometimes grab them by the collar, stare them in the eyes, and tell them I am serious.
Granted, they are not shitty about it, but they still act like it is not possible that I am part Asian give, I guess, where I live in the US. It is a reality.
ITR, you used ‘we’ a lot so I thought you referred to blacks as ‘we’ Keanu Reeves is not half Asian as I recall, he is 1/4 if you consider Hawaiian, Asian. Nonetheless, if so, why has he never played an Asian role. . .because Hollywood producers have recognized that his half-Asian heritage is hip and therefore stopped stereotyping? Because racism has been eliminated in Hollywood as we speak? Good argument, but it aint valid, dog.
I’ve heard this line in quite a few posts, and it really grates on my nerves. When did the word Oriental become synomous with rug? None of the dictionaries I own have that particular definition.
Oriental means “of the orient” and can refer to people as well as a thing. Asian means “of Asia” and can refer to people as well as a thing. Orient and Asia generally refer to the same geographical area. Seems like there is a growing consensus of people from the Far East or with Far Eastern ancesty that prefer the word Asian. That said, there are plenty of examples in literature where both terms are used interchangeably and can be construed as at least somewhat offensive. Read Kim by the Nobel prize winning Rudyard Kipling for a good example.
Asians in American will generally say that their political activism is really something that started in the 1980’s. So, among other things, they haven’t had that long to organize. Asians certainly and Asian Americans are also not a very homogenious (sp?) group. Just my two cents.
Keanu Reeves is not half Asian as I recall, he is 1/4 if you consider Hawaiian, Asian. Nonetheless, if so, why has he never played an Asian role. . .
What about in the Little Buddha, when Keanu played Siddhartha? Granted, perhaps only in the UK does Asia include the sub-continent.
I have been disinvited from this debate due to my skin color and victim mentality. Oh, the irony. . .
Biggirl: NO, sorry, you have NOT been disinvited from this discussion. Let me rephrase that without the biting tone. I suppose I meant that I want to stick to the premise that blacks generally do not have to endure constant sereotyping in pop culture (by white standards) due to racism anymore, while Asians and Native Americans do. The ‘semantics’ I referred to were in regard to your point about what is and is not a privelege. Sure, perhaps ‘privelege’ is not the perfect word, but the message should still be the same: There still exists a more prevalent aura of open racism against Asians and Native Americans more than against blacks in America.
Yes, blacks have come farther than any other racial minority (latinos notwithstanding because the idea of a Latin ‘race’ is muddled with inconsistencies, and is a different discussion.) And, again, I am not trying to undermine what the black civil rights movement did to change our country.
In regards to your first post about should blacks stop doing whatever it is they do to gain the support of our society? No, but maybe the message need be changed to see a broader picture.
such a shame
Even though I think that you are wrong you still made a few good points. If only you had’nt let your emotions take over and started just talking like a plain old racist. then maybe more people would have taken your thoughts on board instead of just trying(and succeding) in making you look stupid
Right. When the villain is a black guy, he’s usually a high-tech computer thief, not a street thug or a drug lord. Nope. No stereotypes there.
As to the issue of people not accepting your 25% Asia status: since our prejudices and hostility tend to be based on perceptions of people, if you do not have any significant Asian-appearing features, you will not be seen as Asian. Lucky you. You get to complain that you’re a victim of discrimination because no one is discriminating against you. Sounds like an ideal world.
As to your original question, I think it has been answered. Blacks stand out as the dominant minority first, because they are a much larger group than most others, and second because they are willing to put the effort into fighting it.
When you claim that
you are making bold assertions that I doubt you can support.
I do not know of any ethnic Chinese or Japanese who have been denied housing or a job based on their appearance (although I am sure that some may have been) while I know several blacks who have been denied those opportunities. More to the point, I know several whites who will rent or sell to an Asian or hire or promote an Asian without a problem who will put barriers up against blacks.
A general discussion of the relative views of society toward different ethnic groups is quite legitimate. Claiming that blacks only fail because they have decided to be victims does nothing to indicate that you are actually interested in a discussion.
Yep, color me another plain old racist. Thank you sooo much for the standard, “I disagree and have nothing of substance to add to this so I’ll label James a racist and feel intellectually superior,”
Tell me then, what qualifies you an expert on the subject?
tom. . .Did you see “Die Hard?” I believe there was a black high-tech computer thief in that one. The “Matrix” had a black leader of a high-tech computer rebel force. “The Art of War” Wesley Snipes was a high-tech operative for the UN. Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman routinely play brilliant, highly respected detectives in Top-billing movies. I could go on and on.
I know it is easy for you to pick particular parts of what I say and attack it.
I never meant to imply that blacks ‘only’ fail because they have decided to be victims, but having a victim’s mentaility does limit one’s potential to succeed. Charles Barkely sees racism everywhere as it exists, but he also says that despite racism, NO ONE can prevent him from being anything he wants to be. He believes that. So do I.
I’d truly be interested to see you try. I’m sure you could double your list (although I notice that you only found one villain in your list), but compare that to the huge number of other movies (and TV episodes) where the black villain is a street thug or drug lord. Giving a few black actors good roles does not change the stereotype that is found throughout the rest of the industry.
On the other hand, how many Asians or American Indians have actually been the villains in recent years? For all that they do not get lead roles, they are also not being portrayed as Fu Manchu or savages any more, either. Looking at the percentage of population noted earlier, I would guess that they are simply not seen as a money market (and that they have fewer persons who might audition for a role to begin with).
As for Charles Barkley, I think he expresses a wonderful sentiment. However, it is rather easier to declare that “anyone can do anything” when one is one of the better performers in one career that actually encourages one’s group to participate.
The fact that Mr. Barkley can make it in the NBA does not mean that every black engineer or accountant is going to be able to beat down the doors to any given company they may choose.
We have, what?, 20 or so black quarterbacks in the NFL now? Is it your contention that no blacks tried to get to those positions before 1995? Or, perhaps, the fact that a couple of sociologists and reporters went out in the early 1990’s and looked up all the outstanding black high school quarterbacks from the 1970s and 1980s and discovered that when they got to college their coaches all suddenly “discovered” that they were “better suited” to be wide receivers and tight ends? That is recent discrimination that was ended because certain people went out, gathered the facts, and raised hell to end it. (We did, indeed, have one black quarterback in the 1970s. His story makes interesting reading when placed against the “anyone can do anything” claim.)
If you know of specific discrimination that is being practiced against Asians, I would think that it would be in your interest and theirs to adopt the black model of calling attention to it.
Now, do I think that every cry from the NAACP has merit? No way. The fuss made at the beginning of the last TV season that there were not enough new black leads was particularly silly in light of the fact that the two preceding seasons had seen a huge leap in the number of black leads, and that very few of them had had their shows cancelled–and all of those because of abysmal ratings.
Are there black individuals who have bought into the “victim” mentality and chosen not to try? Almost certainly. Just as there are a number of whites who have decided that the only reason that they can’t get jobs is “reverse discrimination” despite the fact that it is still a lot easier for a white to get a job than a comparably trained black. However, neither of these groups of individuals represent “blacks” or “whites.”
Tom. . .Thank you, sir for that very astute reply (no sarcasm, in all seriousness.) I do not know if you read my update to my first post, which was a foolish, drunken rant. IF so, then allow me to respond to your latest.
I did not ever say (or imply) that racism against blacks no longer exists. Further, I never meant to assume ALL blacks cannot do for themselves. I said that of the blacks I have brought this subject up with, ALL have disagreed and said that blacks are still the most discriminated against racial minority. Granted, it was only five and they were all male. Four were college educated, however.
All your examples are very real, very pertinant, but looking at your examples. . . there are NO Asian or Native American quarterbacks in the NFL.
True, the Fu Manchu or savage role has been mostly abolished. However, Asian actors/actresses rarely play roles in which they are just people, not specifically Asian. Hell, we ALL can see their genetic makeup, why do they have to play that role? Aren’t there several million Americans who look the same way that do not speak in broken English or know martial arts?
As far as Native Americans are concerned. . .I knew a man who was native American. I do not recall his tribal affiliation. He was married to a white woman, but he was very proud and knowledgeable of his native American ancestry. He was an actor, as was I. This was in college a few years ago. He has appeared in lead roles in “Millenium” and “Harsh Realm” both shows on Fox and F/X. Both times he played native Americans as some sort of rebellious faction against the powers that be. He did these roles after I knew him, but he told me once that everytime he was asked to play a role it was the, “How, white man, you trade-um whiskey for fur?” type thing. He hated it. He was soooo intelligent and a wonderful man, that by listening to him, I began to understand how painful racism can be. And native American roles have so much farther to go than black roles.
Most villians nowadays are European racists, or white, dirty cops, not all, granted, but most.
Wesley Snipes played a badguy in “Demolition Man” but his role was cooler than Stallone’s, and that was a non-stereotype role anyways.
In the 70’s, blacks were the pimps and the thugs on TV and the movies. Tell me a recent movie or TV show where that is true today? Give me five examples off the top of your head.
Oddly, in this thread, my biggest opponents are either whites or blacks, not asians or native Americans. Maybe there is something to that.
(yawn) Or maybe there’s NOTHING to it. Mr. Lan, please don’t be disengenuous. The SDMBs are predominantly white, which means you’re going to get more white respondants to at least LOOK at your thread than anybody, and anytime you slug an GD subject heading, “…why are blacks the most priveliged monority?” that’s going to get African-American respondants in, too. If you wanted more Asians and Latinos to respond, stick 'em in the subject heading next time. Yeesh.
I’m not sure where, but I saw the following list that describes the seven most predominant Asian images in American pop culture. I’m paraphrasing, but they were some combination of 1) sleek Asian gangster 2) exotic beauty/whore 3) loner martial artist 4) technophiliac geek 5) elderly wizended man 6) nerdy student and 7) the all purpose gook. (If I missed any major ones, let me know.) This listing somewhat emulates Donald Bogle’s 5 American-American icons in movies prior to the 1970s, which depicted Mammies, Toms, Bucks, Mulattoes and Coons. Bogle, I know, has updated this listing in a new book I haven’t read yet to show that most are obsolete now, (The Buck is still going strong… heheheheh.) but part of me can’t help but wonder WHEN Asian-Americans are going to demand more parity and diversified characterization on-screen. ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ may be a refreshing change of pace with the sublime love story of Li Mu Bai/Shu Lien and the more torrid love affair of Jen/Lo, and a terrific example of wuxia, but at the end of the day it’s STILL is a chop-socky movie about a loner martial artist seeking peace, redemption and revenge, that lost out in the Academy Awards to an inferior gladiator flick.
A thought: could it be that Asian-Americans are too wrapped up in being an assimilationist ‘model minority’ that they really don’t want to organize and rock the boat?
PART of African-Americans minority status is our long history of injustice, our sheer tenacity fighting Jim Crow laws, part of it is our undeniable influence on pop culture in music, sports, entertainment and groundbreaking tactics in shaping public policy that has indirectly benefitted every OTHER minority during and since the Civil Rights Era. And we don’t shut up. But we’ve been in a state of general post-Civil Rights malaise in terms of leadership ever since the early seventies, and in terms of sheer numbers Latinos will be overstripping us soon. (Necessito la lengua segundo, no?)
Also, there’s the lure of simple duality. The opposite of white is black, and so long as people insist on seeing ‘black people’ and ‘white people’ in imagined racial terms, it’s always going to BE black and white as the dominant two subjects in any table talk on race, with all others thrown in as an afterthought, just like it’ll always be about Democrats and Republicans in politics. People talk a good game about third parties, but they never seem to have any staying power, do they?
If you have any more questions, Ask The Black Guy. stuffinb started it, but celestina and Biggirl are over there, too, and I’m on a roll.
I find that is generally true of any actor who plays opposite Stallone.
Keanu Reeves is a quarter Hawaiian, a quarter Chinese, and half English. He was born in Beirut, but grew up mostly in Toronto. Another example of someone of partly Asian ancestry who has been a lead in a TV show is Dean Cain, who’s a quarter Japanese.
jamesblan,
If you want to be better understood by people, please put a line of space between your paragraphs. It’s hard to read them otherwise. It’s also a good idea not to capitalize words for emphasis so much. You might also spell-check your posts (using whatever word-processing tool your computer has) before posting them.
ok.
Just a theory I’ve had. Flame me if it seems inappropriate. Asian American versus Native American/African American are two different cups of tea.
Asian Americans came to this country, experienced racism, worked hard, and are now IMHO acheiving a level of acceptance in society. This rise parallels previous waves of European immigrants – the Irish, Polish, Czechs, and Jews. They all came, experienced discrimination, worked hard, and blended into the American quilt within a few generations. This is not to say they completely lost their heritage – there is still much cultural evidence of the earlier waves of European immigration. I feel the same thing is happening now with Hispanic and Indian immigrants.
Unfortunately, African Americans and Native Americans were not given this chance. They have been here from the start (or before the start). They underwent systematic discrimination and outright repression for well on 300 years. That type of insult leaves deep scars. One can’t start from scratch with those types of societal scars. One must instead work to heal the scars, which is what African American and Native American groups try to do. Only after we come to grips with the wrongs committed by our society can we fully move beyond race.