Fallacies get imprinted young...

[FinnAgain]

@Harborwolf

This is silly. Who cares that her guardian raised her to be religious? Why is that a bad thing?

I don’t think that people are objecting to her being religious as much as they’re objecting to fallacious logic. As has been stated and restated, if God can influence things than he’s to blame for the rape as well as the cop finding her. If God can’t influence things, than there’s no reason to thank him.

@Harborwolf

How do we know that she hasn’t thanked Sgt. Mike Hall?

That is a good point, she might have. But it wouldn’t change the fallacious nature of thanking God for her rescue.

@Harborwolf

After what she went through, I’d write her a pass if she wanted to thank Hitler, Santa Claus, and Duck Dodgers. Whatever gave her the whatnot to get through it.

In a pragmatic sense? Yes, whatever gets her through this tragedy reasonably sane is good. But I’d also wager that there are other coping mechanisms which don’t rely on a God or Gods to work. And, of course, it is still a fallacy to thank God for the good stuff while ignoring the bad.

@Harborwolf

This does not compare to thanking God for winning a grammy or a sporting event.

Not in magnitude, no. But in form? They’re both thanking God for causing a good thing while ignoring God for causing bad things.

@Harborwolf

And the whole “God does evil” thing is easy to explain.

Yes and no. It’s easy to make up some mythology to weave some strands together, but that’s not really an explenation especially if it’s got a system of logic that’s full of holes. More to the point…

@Harborwolf

You can go with God v. Satan with bad things happening to test faith.

But that still leaves us right at step one. Why allow a Satan at all? Surely an omniscient being would know someone’s heart. Further, why make such a thing actually happen? Surely an omnipotent God could cause you to have a very very very vidid dream in which you were raped and left for dead to see if you’d still have faith. Heck, this omniscient being could then erase the memory so you’d think you had a good night’s sleep.

@Harborwolf

If you want to leave Satan out (and why would you? The dude rawks hardcore), then you can go with God allowing free will and whatever happens happens.

This is a bit better, but then it eliminates someone thanking God for good things. After all, if there’s free will then God had nothing to do with it.

@Harborwolf

I’m not sure that any religion preaches that God is some form of omnipotent cosmic babysitter.

Depends on how you define ‘cosmic babysitter’

[Metacom]

What a rotten little bitch. How dare she attribute to God what she could have attributed to a police officer and probability? We know she wanted to thank God, which means she obviously didn’t thank the police officer.

That little shit should have dropped to her knees and said “Thank you officer, for saving my life. I’m glad you evolved and happened to be in the right place at the right time to save me. God doesn’t exist, and the losers that believe in it are a bunch of SNORT conformists. I wish the Christians weren’t trying to take over are country and make it into Jesus land.”

Then she’d be a cool eight year old. Instead, she has to pull this shit and be a total little loser. That cop should’ve left that ungrateful little cunt there to rot, so she couldn’t thin the gene pool with her idiocy.
Sometimes this board can be a really, really ugly place.

[BobLibDem]

Perhaps she did thank the good sergeant, I haven’t seen that she hadn’t. And perhaps God sent the cop to her. Has it occurred to anyone that just maybe she prayed through this ordeal and that just maybe she felt that her prayers were answered?

[woodstockbirdybird]

@Metacom

What a rotten little bitch. How dare she attribute to God what she could have attributed to a police officer and probability? We know she wanted to thank God, which means she obviously didn’t thank the police officer.

That little shit should have dropped to her knees and said “Thank you officer, for saving my life. I’m glad you evolved and happened to be in the right place at the right time to save me. God doesn’t exist, and the losers that believe in it are a bunch of SNORT conformists. I wish the Christians weren’t trying to take over are country and make it into Jesus land.”

Then she’d be a cool eight year old. Instead, she has to pull this shit and be a total little loser. That cop should’ve left that ungrateful little cunt there to rot, so she couldn’t thin the gene pool with her idiocy.
Sometimes this board can be a really, really ugly place.

Gosh, a self-righteous finger-wagging pussy who attributes overly simplified ideas that were never expressed by anyone to half the people in the thread! What an unlikely development here on the boards.

[FinnAgain]

Need some more straw?

@Metacom

How dare she attribute to God what she could have attributed to a police officer and probability?

Have you missed the fact that it’s a fallacy to say God caused her to be rescued and be thankful, but not take note of the fact that then God would have caused her to be raped in the first place, or at least not prevented it?

@Metacom

We know she wanted to thank God, which means she obviously didn’t thank the police officer.

Well, she may’ve thanked the cop, the guy who actually saved her life. But she’s spent far more time thanking God (or at least, the news is reporting it that way.), who did nothing even if we assume that God exists. Or God did in fact do something, and then God’s to blame for her getting raped in the first place.

@Metacom

That little shit should have dropped to her knees and said “Thank you officer, for saving my life. I’m glad you evolved and happened to be in the right place at the right time to save me. God doesn’t exist, and the losers that believe in it are a bunch of SNORT conformists. I wish the Christians weren’t trying to take over are country and make it into Jesus land.”

:rolleyes:
No, she didn’t need to mention evolution. And no, this thread doesn’t touch on the very real nature of the American Theocratic movement(s). But it’s a fallacy to thank God for saving her from a mess he put her into in the first place. Either that, or it’s a fallacy to thank God for a mess that he neither put her into nor got her out of.

@Metacom

Then she’d be a cool eight year old. Instead, she has to pull this shit and be a total little loser. That cop should’ve left that ungrateful little cunt there to rot, so she couldn’t thin the gene pool with her idiocy.

Correct, all us hateful atheists in this thread have said just that. I even kicked a puppy this morning just for fun. A Christian puppy! Top that.

@Metacom

Sometimes this board can be a really, really ugly place.

I’d agree, but not for the reasons you have.

[Harborwolf]

Finnagain, I’m not saying that religion doesn’t have any holes. I just don’t begrudge people their faith, no matter how illogical it may be.

And if you want to know why god doesn’t get the blame, it’s because he’s god. He made it impossible for Himself to be blamed for anything. He’s that slick.

Kind of a lousy babysitter though. My diaper has needed changing for quite some time.

[FinnAgain]

@BobLibDem

And perhaps God sent the cop to her.

This is the problem. If God sent the cop, why not send him sooner? What, does God really wait till a litttle girl has been horribly beaten and raped before he’ll consider helping her out? He’ll listen to her spoken prayers, but not her unvoiced desire to not be raped and beaten and left for dead?

@BobLibDem

Has it occurred to anyone that just maybe she prayed through this ordeal and that just maybe she felt that her prayers were answered?

“After a flood if people pray, the water will gradually recede. After a flood if people do not pray, the water will gradually recede.”
“He prayed every day to win the lottery, and after thirty years, he did.”

Do you think the other children who were murdered this year, and in years passed, never cried out for mercy? Never prayed to God, or begged for their mothers?

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

Two little girls, one eight and one nine, both in Florida, are abducted, sexually abused and buried alive. God saves the former and allows the latter to die? Why?

[FinnAgain]

@Harborwolf

Finnagain, I’m not saying that religion doesn’t have any holes. I just don’t begrudge people their faith, no matter how illogical it may be.

Hrm… to be honest I can’t quite put my thoughts into words on this topic. I feel that you and I disagree, but I can’t say exactly how. I wouldn’t, exactly, begrudge someone their faith, but I would still point out that it doesn’t make sense, if, well, it doesn’t. I’m not sure where this leaves things.

@Harborwolf

And if you want to know why god doesn’t get the blame, it’s because he’s god. He made it impossible for Himself to be blamed for anything. He’s that slick.

Well, damnit, who died and made him God? ;j

@Harborwolf

Kind of a lousy babysitter though. My diaper has needed changing for quite some time.

God’s girlfriend came over and they raided the fridge before locking themselves in a room. The bastid!

[auntie_em]

What I want to know (that nobody seems to have mentioned yet) is why the girl thought she needed a pastor to thank God? No, seriously. I mean, I know that people ask for the assistance of their pastors in, for example, praying for a sick loved one, and that they often go to their pastors to seek counseling, etc. But in my (admittedly limited, childhood) church-going experience, I was always taught that I could (and should) just talk to Him myself.

So at eight years old, yeah, I might have figured that my rescue was all the work of The Almighty (although I have to admit that as a kid I really did think that He, being all powerful, controlled us all like puppets and so was responsible for the bad stuff too; so, for example, when I got in trouble for spraying red Chloraseptic all over the bathtub after my mom had cleaned house for her bridge club, I was kinda pissed at God for making me do it in the first place, I mean He had to have known I’d get in trouble . . . ), but I would have just sent Him a shout-out my damn self.

[Metacom]

@FinnAgain

Have you missed the fact that it’s a fallacy to say God caused her to be rescued and be thankful, but not take note of the fact that then God would have caused her to be raped in the first place, or at least not prevented it?

First, you can’t infer that she doesn’t think God also causes bad things merely because she thanks him for the good. It’s entirely possible to thank those that do bad for the good they do.

Second, unless you know what “God” means to her you can’t call fallacy (assuming she doesn’t think God causes bad things). Believe it or not, most religions have adressed the whole “Why do bad things happen?” question, and it’s entirely possible to believe in a good God that created a world where bad things happen.

But she’s spent far more time thanking God (or at least, the news is reporting it that way.)

This is laughable. You don’t know shit about the situation, other then some newspaper articles, and your dickering over the proportion of time that they’ve reported her thanking God vs the officer? Do you think she should carry a stopwatch and alternate 10-minute sessions praising the officer with 10-minute sessions praising God? Do you think that, perhaps, the pastor that her family got for her can help her deal with the emotional aftermath of what happened to her? That maybe an eight year old who’s suffered through horrific events might find solace in God? That reason divorced from myth and ritual can be inadequate for dealing with that kind of pain and confusion?

Y’all don’t know shit about what happened after she was found, yet you assume she didn’t thank the officer. You don’t know what specific religious beliefs her family hold about the nature of God, yet you assume they believe in God-as-an-omnipotent-omniscient-benevolent-entity. You know fuck-all about the situation and the girl, and you open a pit thread so you can flame AN EIGHT YOUR OLD because the AP said she wanted to thank god for being found BURIED ALIVE IN A LANDFILL. A ball of horse smegma would be better company then you assholes.

[BobLibDem]

You ask why did God allow this girl to be kidnapped? You might as well ask, why does God allow any evil in the world? The answer is that we are given free will. We can love each other, or we can kill each other. The choice is ours. Sometimes there are miraculous events that people thank God for. Whether it is truly a divine intervention or not is anyone’s guess. That this girl had enough faith to thank God for her good fortune isn’t something to chastise her for. Of course, it would be appropriate to thank the officer as well. But whether this was simply random luck or God working through a policeman isn’t something we can determine.

Why doesn’t God save every child that prays to Him? We don’t know. Like Job, we lack the credentials to even ask the question.

[Dung_Beetle]

@BobLibDem

Why doesn’t God save every child that prays to Him? We don’t know. Like Job, we lack the credentials to even ask the question.

I’m asking anyway.

[Muffin]

@Bear_Nenno

IF God made the girl be saved, THEN God made her be raped.
IF the rapist was acting with free will and under no intervention from God, THEN the Officer who saved her was actiing with free will and under no intervention from God.

Either scenario would make Thanking God a little silly. What is she thanking him for??? It would make more sense for little girls who were NEVER raped or left for dead to be thanking God.
You would like to think that the rapist was acting under his own free will, AND the cop was doing God’s work. WTF!? You can’t have both!

Third option: Either praise and thank god for good things and don’t bitch to god about bad things or else god will smite you (which in turn explains why the child went through such a horrible ordeal in the first place – she must have blamed god for some other bad thing and as a result was smitten).

Needless to say, I am of the opinion that belief in god is silly.

[FinnAgain]

@Metacom

First, you can’t infer that she doesn’t think God also causes bad things merely because she thanks him for the good. It’s entirely possible to thank those that do bad for the good they do.

:headdesk:
Then it’s a fallacy to thank God for something he caused!

“Thank you God for sending Lisa to fight the moth that you also sent.”

@Metacom

Second, unless you know what “God” means to her you can’t call fallacy

Sure I can, just watch me.

@Metacom

Believe it or not, most religions have adressed the whole “Why do bad things happen?” question, and it’s entirely possible to believe in a good God that created a world where bad things happen.

It’s also entirely possible to believe that the world is held up on the shoulders of Atlas.

But, still, if we’re looking at a world where God just lets everything happen, then God shouldn’t be thanked for the police officer’s actions. If God created a world where God influences things, then God shouldn’t be thanked because he either caused or did not prevent the girl getting raped in the first place.

@Metacom

This is laughable. You don’t know shit about the situation, other then some newspaper articles, and your dickering over the proportion of time that they’ve reported her thanking God vs the officer?

Actually, what’s laughable is that you’ve taken a simple statement of fact and twisted it to further some weird rant. Yes, the news has been harping on her asking for a pastor so she could pray to God for her rescue, and not that she was thanking the police officer. If you really want to split hairs, I can say that I’m taking issue with the-issue-as-it-is-presented-by-the-media.

@Metacom

Do you think she should carry a stopwatch and alternate 10-minute sessions praising the officer with 10-minute sessions praising God?

Yes, that’s it exactly. (You haven’t read this thread, have you?)
I think she should spend all of her time thanking the cop.
And I think that the picture the news agencies are painting is that she’s spent her time thanking God and not the cop. As a matter of fact, I’ve yet to see a single article that even mentions her thanking the cops who saved her.

@Metacom

Do you think that, perhaps, the pastor that her family got for her can help her deal with the emotional aftermath of what happened to her?

Now you’re just making shit up. The news reports were quite clear that she asked for a pastor herself, and that it was to thank God for her rescue.

“LAKE WORTH, Florida (CNN) – An 8-year-old girl who police say was raped and left for dead in a landfill asked for a pastor “so she could thank God” shortly after her rescue”

@Metacom

That maybe an eight year old who’s suffered through horrific events might find solace in God?

She could also find solace in lots and lots of opiates.
The specific dynamic which was being pitted is that it’s fallacious to thank God for saving you if God put you in the situation in the first place, and it’s fallacious to thank God if God neither put you in or saved you from a situation.

@Metacom

That reason divorced from myth and ritual can be inadequate for dealing with that kind of pain and confusion?

No.
I think there are certainly enough coping mechanisms which rely on reality that one doesn’t have to make things up.

@Metacom

Y’all don’t know shit about what happened after she was found, yet you assume she didn’t thank the officer.

Simply untrue. I myself have said at least one time in this thread that she may very well have, but that it’s being reported that most if not all of her attention was on thanking God.

@Metacom

You don’t know what specific religious beliefs her family hold about the nature of God, yet you assume they believe in God-as-an-omnipotent-omniscient-benevolent-entity.

Quit using strawmen!
The power of “Bob” compells you!
The power of “Bob” compells you!
The power of “Bob” compells you!

Nobody has said that her parents believe that God is omnipotent. It doesn’t matter what beliefs they hold, because, yet-a-freakin-gain:
Omnipotent God = responsible for getting her into the mess in the first place, so thanks are not necessary.
God not acting = not responsible for getting her into or out of the mess, so is not deserving of thanks.

@Metacom

You know fuck-all about the situation and the girl, and you open a pit thread so you can flame AN EIGHT YOUR OLD because the AP said she wanted to thank god for being found BURIED ALIVE IN A LANDFILL

Wow… do you find it too hard to debate against actual arguments? Is that why you need to invent them and then try to ascribe them to your opponents? First, we know as much as the news is telling us, and that’s what we base our conclusions on. Ya know, data? Second, I’ve seen nobody flaming her, except you when you were trying to put words into other people’s mouths. Third, it is a fallacy to thank God for saving you from being BURRIED ALIVE IN A LANDFILL if God caused you to be BURRIED ALIVE IN A LANDFILL. It is also a fallacy to thank God if he didn’t get you out of the landfill.

@Metacom

A ball of horse smegma would be better company then you assholes.

I love you too.

[Harborwolf]

@FinnAgain

Hrm… to be honest I can’t quite put my thoughts into words on this topic. I feel that you and I disagree, but I can’t say exactly how. I wouldn’t, exactly, begrudge someone their faith, but I would still point out that it doesn’t make sense, if, well, it doesn’t. I’m not sure where this leaves things.

We agree on the sentiment. I just have issues with the example and the timing.

I think BobLibDem hit on something.

Has it occurred to anyone that just maybe she prayed through this ordeal and that just maybe she felt that her prayers were answered?

You have a young girl who has just been through a trauma that noone should even have to go through. Logic is the farthest thing on her mind. She’s desperate for some comfort. She starts praying and eventually (I’m not sure on how accurate her perception of time was) she gets rescued.

It’s highly illogical (Captain), but why exactly should it be given the circumstances?

[FinnAgain]

@BobLibDem

You ask why did God allow this girl to be kidnapped? You might as well ask, why does God allow any evil in the world? The answer is that we are given free will. We can love each other, or we can kill each other. The choice is ours.

Then isn’t a fallacy to thank God for choices that we made on our own?

@BobLibDem

Sometimes there are miraculous events that people thank God for. Whether it is truly a divine intervention or not is anyone’s guess.

But if they believe in a God that doesn’t interact with us, then it’s fallacious for them to believe that a God that doesn’t interact, interacted.
And if they believe God does interact with us, I think it’s pefectly fair to ask why that whore of a deity doesn’t interact all the time in order to make things right.

@BobLibDem

That this girl had enough faith to thank God for her good fortune isn’t something to chastise her for.

Pointing out fallacies is a bad thing?

@BobLibDem

Of course, it would be appropriate to thank the officer as well. But whether this was simply random luck or God working through a policeman isn’t something we can determine.

Damnit… This is getting frustrating.

If God was ‘working through’ the police officer, why the fuck not do it sooner? Why not prevent the rape in the first place? If God could’ve ‘worked through’ the police officer, then he’s an asshole for not doing it sooner. If God couldn’t ‘work through’ the police officer, then God shouldn’t be thanked for his actions.

@BobLibDem

Why doesn’t God save every child that prays to Him? We don’t know. Like Job, we lack the credentials to even ask the question.

Pshaw. Cop out.

[FinnAgain]

@Harborwolf

You have a young girl who has just been through a trauma that noone should even have to go through. Logic is the farthest thing on her mind. She’s desperate for some comfort.

I can’t shake the feeling that there are coping mechanisms which don’t involve fair weather worship.

@Harborwolf

It’s highly illogical (Captain), but why exactly should it be given the circumstances?

i don’t know… but I think that when people, even young people, are struck by tragedy that it should be used as a chance for growth if at all possible.

[Desmostylus]

@Harborwolf

You have a young girl who has just been through a trauma that noone should even have to go through. Logic is the farthest thing on her mind. She’s desperate for some comfort. She starts praying and eventually (I’m not sure on how accurate her perception of time was) she gets rescued.

It’s highly illogical (Captain), but why exactly should it be given the circumstances?

Makes perfect sense to me.

I did a similar thing at about the same age, when I got out of my depth in the surf. I prayed for rescue or help or anything to get me out of the situation, and I promised all sorts of shit in return. I made it back to the beach and survived, but I reneged on my promise to join a religious order. I can’t remember what I said when I got back to the beach, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was something like “thank god”.

[Harborwolf]

@FinnAgain

I can’t shake the feeling that there are coping mechanisms which don’t involve fair weather worship.

I’m sure there are. In a situation like this, the brain is likely to reach for whatever is handy. She was brought up to be religious, so God was the first and easiest.

i don’t know… but I think that when people, even young people, are struck by tragedy that it should be used as a chance for growth if at all possible.

Growth comes afterwards once healing has finished. I think perfect rationality is the last thing we should be expecting out of a child that has gone through what she went through.