Yes, Liberal, you’re very noble and put-upon. Can we all agree on this, so he’ll stop pointing it out in every thread?
True. But there’s nowhere else this argument can go. If you claim that God is all-knowing and that you are not, then it stands to reason that He has information that you do not. Therefore, not all His actions or decisions will make sense to you.
You were expecting something different out of the 11,000,000th version of this argument that we didn’t get the first 10,999,999 times?
Liberal: I have never understood why I am singled out for this. Lots of people come into threads like these (you, for instance), and state their opinions and do not endure a deluge of righteous indignation.
Welllllllll, to be fair, Lib, when you came in here you were hardly just “stating an opinion”. You came across as deliberately trying to provoke ParentalAdvisory by pretending to consider him/her equally as capable of preventing this tragic crime as God is. When PA asked “Where was God [during that crime]?”, you shot back “Where were you?”, and continued:
Now, you have to admit that that can easily be interpreted as a sneaky and snarky response. PA is asking why an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God let this terrible thing happen—which is a perfectly reasonable question, indeed the central question in the ages-old “problem of pain”—and you responded in what was, at the very least, a riddling and deliberately indirect way that sounds like some wannabe Zen-Master aphorism, and/or a weasely evasion of the point of his/her question.
I personally have got used to your style and don’t accuse you of deliberately trying to condescend or obfuscate, but I think it’s pretty clear why you’d get a reaction of “stupid” or “condescending” to a post like that. I’m not saying that people never pick on you unfairly, but in this case I think your posting style was kinda begging for some picking-on.
Who is your audience? Heretofore, a conspiracy had not dawned on me.
I can understand that. It seems to me, however, that a statement like, “It’s all just so damn hypocritical, this God business,” is at least as provocative, sneaky, and snarky. A similar remark about atheism (and therefore atheists) in an OP, and this entire thread would be reversed, with a flood of attacks against the OP.
Back to school for you Liberal. I have oft watched you spout fallacies and call it logic. I suspect your knowledge of that science may have been gleaned from the wrapping on a toilet roll whilst otherwise occupied. I have actually taught the fucking subject. Your use of it would get any student of mine an “F”. But back to the subject at hand.
You really owe an explanation about how you might see ‘love’ as ‘real’ (that is, if I am reading you correctly, as being extant outside of an abstract description) and ‘evil’ as being something quite the reverse.
I guess you must be able to point to some real world object and say “Here, then, is a love!” If hyou can show this in any meaningful way as being anything other than an abstract construct then you probably deserve some sort of prize.
Liberal: It seems to me, however, that a statement like, “It’s all just so damn hypocritical, this God business,” is at least as provocative, sneaky, and snarky.
Can’t argue there, but, well, [sub]two wrongs and the Wrights, and all that, y’know? I’m just sayin’.[/sub]
Actually, in the kittycat trainwreck a bit back, he very clearly claimed, over and over, in the face of opposition, that love is something that only exists in the limbic center of the brain.
If he now believes in love as some sort of independent force, this is a new development in his philosophy.
(snort!)
Blessedly, I am not your student.
Again, love is the facilitation of goodness. God is the agent Who facilitates goodness. Therefore, God is love. God is all that is real. The universe is not real. Evil arises from an amoral context, and therefore is not real.
Wherever you see edification, you see love. Goodness is that aesthetic which edifies, and is the aesthetic most valued by God.
I just thought this bore repeating once again.
I can see how you made that mistake. Love is one of those terms that has so many definitions, and one of them is an emotion. It is emotions, including the emotion of love, that originates in the limbic system. But love in the sense of the archaic term “charity” is translated from the Greek [symbol]agape[/symbol], and has nothing to do with the emotion of love. If you will search for “facilitation” under my user name, you will see dozens of times this has been explained, and love has been defined in this way in this context. You might trust Kimstu to explain this usage to you, and so I leave it to her to do so. Polycarp is also familiar with it. As is Gaudere, and almost everyone I can think of at the moment who has ever been involved in these discussions.
It wasn’t a mistake, dear, it was sarcasm. You do seem to miss the subtleties at times. Rest assured that I do not require an explanation of the term from you, though I’m sorry to disappoint you if you took pleasure in my perceived ignorance.
Tell me…how do you know god is omnipotent? Certainly not by his actions. What makes you think he is? What makes you think he has any powers at all?
If the christian god exists, indeed we ARE helpless puppets. He decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, based on a set of rules that we may or may not live by during our lives. He decides which little girl gets raped and beaten and rescued and which little girls get murdered. He has the power to intervene, and it is solely up to him to either step in or watch the carnage. It is ONLY about power.
OK, Lib it is either time for a nap or time for your meds. You pick. God told me to type this cause god is love and I felt a little tingle in my limbic system.
What part of this do you not understand?
Nothing in there blames the kid, or is making her “victim” all over again. I said I “guess” I’m blaming the guardian because It wasn’t clear if the Godmother raised her, or someone else. I don’t know. So let’s just say who ever raised her.
RAPE OR NOT,
SHE WAS TAUGHT TO BASICALLY RESPECT THIN AIR OVER REAL PEOPLE FOR HER RESCUE. I’m pitting the fact that in this day in age, children are still being taught that 2 + 2 equals 5.
And that’s a damn shame, that’s all I’m saying. This goes for ANY kid! So I’m not pitting the girl herself! If anyone else choose to except that I am, then there’s nothing I can say to change your opinion. Oh well, I won’t loose sleep over it.
I think you’re using a different definition of “real” than most folks are. Do you mean “real” in a sort of Velveteen Rabbit kind of way?
You know, a similarly epistemologically-inclined fellow (whom I hold in very high regard,) in between a lot of experimental and contradictory expositions about the nature of God as he experienced him, once hit on a single profundity that holds up better than anything else he ever set down (except for his fiction.)
He said “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”
You don’t believe in the universe, and you don’t believe in evil. How’s that working out for you?
When I believed God was talking to me, briefly, I had plenty of evidence to support it. Now I believe it was a manic episode. I feel much better, thank you.
You’re kidding, right? How do I know she’s engaged in fair weather worship? Because, again, omnipotent God would’ve caused her to be raped in the first place. Non omnipotent God wouldn’t have caused her to be rescued at all. Should I maybe change the font I’m using to type or something?
It’s not crucial, because if she doesn’t believe in an god that interacts with us, then she can’t thank God for doing anything. You claim you want an answer to this and I’ve dismissed it, yet I must’ve answered it a dozen times in this thread. There is a direct implication to a God who can cause you to be rescued, but too busy to cause you not to be raped.
So… your objection is that this is a good and timely debate, but it’s not happening in GD? There are lots of good debates in the Pit, and as of yet, I don’t see what’s wrong with this one. Simly pointing out the forum doesn’t win you any points.
Nope.
I’ve seen people picking on the logic she was indoctrinated with. As of yet I’ve seen nobody insult the girl personally.
Oooooh, dramatic!
Except, yet again, nobody has said a thing to her. So your desire to cast this debate as people being nasty to the girl is simply misplaced. We’ve been discussing the mechanics of selective belief in, largely, a calm and reasonable tone. Some folks, ahem, keep trying to turn this into something nasty.
Um… no. Again, there are real coping mechanisms that don’t rely on selective feel-goodism. These stand the test of time and are always useful. This isn’t a platitude, it’s just a fact.
Now perhaps if you can explain how you seem to cling to strawmen in the hope that one will stick and help your argument, at all?
There’s a big difference between saying she should’ve been taught differently and advocating going and yelling at her for having been indoctrinated.
First, it’s not about whether or not we agree with the belief, but that the belief is at best contradictory and a hinderance for life. Second, I don’t agree that it’s a benefit. Instead of dealing with the actual issues, she’s going to retreat into an illusory refuge. Would you rather that she go through intensive counseling and maybe some day learn a martial art to defend herself, or that she should think God has a soft spot for her and will look out for her?
Ooooooh… putting words in my mouth. Brave of you.
And no, it’s not an ‘alternative belief’, it’s wrong. I can believe that leprechauns fill my gas tank only on thursdays, but it’ll be wrong.
V.A.L.I.S. also kicked ass.
I read thru, but skimmed, so this may have been said already.
If this girl was saved by the grace of God…what of all those other little girls who are not?
Did they not love God enough? Daydream in Sunday school? Were they Jewish or Muslim gilrs? Or (shock and horror) non-churched?
I do not see how anyone can say that God should be thanked for “saving” or “rescuing” this little girl w/o a qualm of conscience about worshipping a God who ignores or deliberatley turns His back on others.
don’t give me “mysterious ways” Bullshit on a shingle. Either he can prevent this from happening or He is as helpless as any of us.
I keep seeing the word “choices” brought up…that and “free will”. Easy explanation for the rapist–what of the girl?
Where is her free will or choice in this? Or did she “ask” for it by being 8 and playing etc?
Tie yourselves up in knots with the excuses and the calls of “it’s a matter of faith”–I’m not buying it.
Now, as for the victim of this evil-she is welcome by me to call on any power that she can to get her thru this.
It would be interesting (if it were fiction) to see how this faith of hers manifests itself throughout her life.
If I were Christian (and when I was)–I never took my participation in that faith to mean that I could not rage at Jesus or God–or criticize them either. Hell, if He made me–then He made my temper and my faults, too.
And He loves and understands me when I struggle…just like He loves and understands the struggles of the little girl and the rapist .