Fat patient in the blood lab center

Pssst, “she.”

I can only speak from my own experience, but what I can tell you is this: the people I know who hate their weight and constantly talk about how they’d like to be thin… don’t change anything significant. They still plop down in front of the TV instead of going for a walk. They still eat large portions at their meals. They still order takeout instead of cooking meals. They still reward themselves with treats for eating something healthy, thereby negating the whole thing.

It doesn’t bother me if people decide that they’d rather eat some brownies and watch *Dollhouse *than have a salad and go jogging. But if that’s the case, they need to learn to like who they are, which includes their weight. They can’t have it both ways. If you don’t like yourself, how can you expect me to like you?

The problem is that while it’s not 100% choice, it’s not 100% predestination, either. I’ve readily admitted that this is the case, but you can’t seem to spit out anything but “it’s not their fault.” Do you truly believe that people have literally **no **personal responsibility for their own weight?

Congratultions: I will now always picture you as Armin Shimerman.

You swapped the sentence around. The point was that being fat implies that you’ve been taking in more calories than your body needs, not that taking in more calories than your body needs implies you’re fat. Certainly, a thin person can at any given moment eat some extra calories, and a fat person may change their diet and currently be losing weight.

Regardless, we’re playing semantic games. I can’t help but feel that you’re dodging the issue at hand, which is that being fat means that you have at some point taken in more calories than your body needs to run itself. Unless you think people magically grow fat?

We focus on fat because it’s obvious and because our culture considers it to be unattractive. Do you really need to be told this? And you seem to be putting words into the mouths of others–did I ever say that I think it’s hunky-dorey for a thin person to shovel junk food into their mouth?

The difference between a fat person eating at McDonald’s and a thin person eating at McDonald’s, however, is this: we have a reasonable amount of evidence in front of our eyes that on the whole, the thin person has better learned to balance their food intake with their particular body’s caloric needs.

Similarly, I will look askance at a friend pouring himself a drink who passes out drunk every night before I would at another friend who stops before he gets completely wasted.

Yeah, seriously, what the hell? Can’t they see we’re busy?

ETA:

CrazyChop, you forgot “Is racist.”

Well, no not everyone eats bad food. I don’t, for example. And I’m not really skinny, but that’s neither here nor there. And that’s my point. Why do we even care about weight when we should be caring about health? I mean, there are healthy fat people, you know. I realize that there’s some correlation, but Fat is still a distraction from a real issue (health).

Since I’ve preached fat acceptance on this board before, I took it upon myself to defend my position. However, you do seem to be attacking someone with a much less reasonable position. Care to link provide links to where this Fat Police have posted? (I may not have read all the same threads as you, after all.)

(Sorry for the double post; this popped up while I was posting)

Well, that’s fine, but if someone ate a lot in the past, then gained a bunch of weight, and now eats well, they may still be fat and not losing weight. This is not a semantic game. A person is much less likely to lose weight than gain it. Ask any dieter. A person who becomes fat has a high probability of staying fat, as their metabolism adjusts itself.

Yes, I know our society feels that way. That’s what I was commenting on. Not on what you said, I suppose. I’m sorry for putting words in your mouth.

Not enough evidence, I feel. I don’t think the correlation is strong enough. I know plenty of skinny poor white trash types who eat McDonalds-type “food” all the time. And yet, they are still clogging their arteries. We just can’t see that.

Yes, but you can’t tell if a random drunk person at the bar does this every night, and so the analogy with my McDonald’s scenario fails.

Yeah, but they don’t go around whining about how nobody finds them attractive because of their clogged arteries.

I honestly do not mean to sound snotty, but no. The Fat Police haven’t taken over the entire board, of course, but they’re not so infrequent that they don’t stand out in my mind. I’m not going to run off to Google to search for “fat” and “genes” to try to dig up an example of what I’m talking about, and I’m certainly not going to use this chickenshit board search function. How about this? Next time I see it, I promise to send you a link. No bullshit.

Here we go. There are far more extreme examples of what I’m talking about than this, but overeating in this thread is likened to a mental disorder, I’m told that some people are “hardwired” to be out of control and eat too much, and one person professes overeating is something that simply happens to him because he “gots the genes.” At least he admits there’s overeating involved, which is better than some of the super crazy posts I’ve seen. Next time I see an A+ example of “I woke up obese because of my genes,” I’ll let you know. It shouldn’t be a long wait.

You will search for days, through more than 7,000 posts over a decade, and never find a single instance, much less repeated instances, of me saying “it’s not their fault” - which is not to say that I think it IS their “fault” - my issue has primarily to do with the meaning of “fault” itself, with the underlying assumptions that are made about people who are fat, and the assumptions that are made about people who are fat when it is likely to be true that if they ate less and were more active they would be less fat or even slim.

The reason fat people get defensive is because of what other people believe, erroneously, about what people with serious obesity issues face. Many people believe that it’s the same equation for everyone, the same experience for everyone, the same challenge for everyone, and they are thoroughly and completely wrong. Because of this belief, they think they are entirely justified and correct in their belief that fat people are lazy, self-loathing, dirty, sloppy, unworthy, and a host of other “less than” adjectives that then gives the non-fat license to be cruel, derisive, judgmental, hostile, and generally dismissive of the fundamental unworthy fat people.

False. The evidence in front of you is that one person is thin and the other is fat. That’s pretty much all you know.

Nearly every person I know is slim or average weight, and not a single one of them has “learned” jack, insofar as it applies to their behavior. They eat the way they like, and roughly half of them naturally prefer what is considered a very healthy diet: little meat, low-fat, lots of vegetables. They didn’t train themselves to eat that way. It’s what they like. a couple of them are almost entirely indifferent to food, one has told me many times if he could take a pill to meet his needs he would rather. He can take some degree of pleasure in eating, but he mostly doesn’t give a shit.

The other half eat whatever the hell suits them as well, but what suits them includes all the same crap and more that you will see millions of other people eating: fat, sugar, junk of every description, no vegetables, no whole foods. They eat when they are bored, because they are triggered by ads or smells, they eat because food is there to be eaten and they like it, all the same stuff fat people are (usually correctly) accused of doing that’s so damn awful. These folks fall into two basic groups: one group has the fabled “fast metabolism” - their bodies take what they need and dump the rest, period. The other group can gain, but they make a few adjustments that they don’t find at all difficult or challenging to make, the weight falls away, and they relax again and go back to enjoying whatever the hell they want.

I do not personally know one slim person who is constantly, day after day, year after year, battling overwhelming, maddening compulsions to eat, and keep eating, that grip them every day of their lives. I am sure a few exist, but I’ve never met them. The people I know who do have such compulsions are either some degree of fat, usually wildly fluctuating because they are trying so hard to fight those compulsions and for a variety of reasons, including purely chemical and biological, they always fail eventually, or they are bulimic, or anorexic, or they have been all three, or they are blessed with one of those fast metabolisms and they never have to worry about the visible effects that their compulsions might produce.

And science has pretty much wiped away any doubt that extreme obesity is created by dieting. The extraordinary numbers of seriously obese people in the US are a direct result of the obsession with weight and thinness. I guarantee you that you have never met or even seen a fat person that has not dieted dozens of times, depending on their age and how long they’ve been fat. And the more they’ve dieted, the earlier they started, the fatter they are likely to be.

Lastly, the comparison between a food addiction and other addictions is useful only to a point. There is a vast difference between food addictions and all other possible addictions: food is necessary to sustain life. We MUST eat. And we’ve all heard the saying regarding alcoholics: One drink is too many, and a thousand is not enough. How sober do you think an alcoholic would remain if he or she HAD to sip an ounce of alcohol 3 times a day? What if a junkie had to take just a tiny little shot a couple of times a day? A smoker could take 2 puffs 3 times a day?

It’s well-established that obese people can and do lose enormous amounts of weight by fasting; Oprah got as thin as she’s ever been doing that. And virtually all such people gain back not only what they lost, but more. Because it’s easier to starve than it is to eat just a little bit.

The bottom line is that looking at anyone tells you nothing. You don’t know why someone is fat. You don’t know why someone is thin. You don’t know their habits, their biology, their genes, their history, their psychology. * YOU. DON’T. KNOW.* So if you are repulsed by their appearance, that’s just how it is. But you cannot possibly extrapolate from someone’s weight what kind of person they are or what challenges they face, and arrive at a judgment about how worthy of admiration, respect, or simple human decency they are deserving or not deserving of.

On the other hand, stepping up to make public judgments about people who are fat, and doing so in the most insulting terms possible, does tell others quite a bit about how worthy of admiration, respect, and simple human decency such persons are deserving or not deserving of.

Stoid, why do you care so goddamn much about what other people think? Why does someone with a differing opinion on obesity offend you so damn much?

I’m a bit confused as to how this comment fits in this thread. Granted it has taken some turns, but aren’t we talking about being judgmental toward fat people? I can jump on the wagon if we are talking about people who whine about their own attractiveness. Though I’m coming from more of a “vanity is stupid” point of view, to be honest.

Yeah, I would also hate to have to use the board search function. It’s a deal.

[hijack]For the record, I also don’t like posts that (preemptively) say “so-and-so’s gonna come in here and say blah.” You didn’t do this exactly, but it was similar, and it has the same effect of prejudging an argument before it is even voiced. As I said before, I’m one of the “Fat Police”, but I don’t agree with your characterization, so either you’re talking about someone else, or you have misunderstood my past posts. But how would I know which? It’s all very muddying, I think.

ETA: what posts in your link do you object to?
[/hijack]

This guy seems to think most people who are overweight aren’t so because of behaviors. About two posts earlier, there was something about a medical condition he has that makes it hard for him to maintain a normal weight, so therefore it’s not true that the majority of weight problems in the US are caused by unhealthy behvaiors? For what it’s worth, I do agree that that the focus should be on health rather than weight, but let’s not ignore the correlation between the two. Also, that is a separate issue from the Fat Police (of which I was not aware you were a member until just now) pretending that most overweight people in this country are perfectly healthy, eat good food, and get sufficient exercise but just have bad genes.

See… this is the very attitude that I am talking about.

Stop and think about exactly what it is you want fat people to admit to, and why, and what follows if they do. You want to blame fat people so it’s ok to despise them. You want to make their acts a matter of willful choice so that if they choose wrongly, you can point and laugh and not have to feel badly about it. "They could be different. They don’t want to be, it’s not that big a deal. They could just try harder. It’s because they don’t try harder-they’re lazy-they’re sloppydirtysmellyuglypiggystupidselfindulgentselfishickyselfdestructivenastyawfulunworthygrossgrotesqueawful people that just barely rate as human beings at all.

Here’s the fact: most people find fat unattractive to downright repulsive. (including fat people themselves - think about what that must be like next time you feel absolutely sure fat people jsut don’t care.) When we find things repulsive we don’t like such things. From this, two things follow: since we are already, by our visceral reaction to someone’s repulsiveness, inclined to dislike them, we are also inclined to believe bad things about them (check with any of the many studies that have been done about this, there’s lots.) And we also don’t want to believe that we are so shallow that we would dislike someone just because of the way they look, particularly if the way they look is something they can’t control, or even find extraordinarily difficult to control.

All of which leads to people being unwilling to accept the idea that fat people are fat for a lot of different reasons, and none of the reasons justify hating the fat people. So no matter how much solid evidence is presented to enlighten the ignorant about the realities of obesity, it’s easier to ignore it and just go on hating fat people for being fat.

You know, it’s not like if you ease up on the hating and judging of fat people, it means you have to fuck them, or even be their friend. And it’s not like the fact that other people are fat makes whatever is wrong with you somehow better. Everyone is flawed. The fact that fat people’s flaws are so visible should logically engender more sympathy, not less, since they can’t hide like you can.

We’re here to fight ignorance, aren’t we?

Stoid, can you please calm down? Despite the craziness you have created in your mind, nobody (at least not me) is saying fat people are piggy or unhuman. I have not expressed any hatred toward fat people, or referred to them as “icky.” What I “want fat people to admit to” is that in most cases (yes yes, I know - your best friend’s cousin’s baby mama uncle’s neighbor’s step-son has a glandular problem) is the weight gain is due to poor diet and exercise. This is not a judgment of character. This does not mean the person is bad or gross or smelly, or whatever you think it is I’m trying to say.

My hair style is a result of my asking my stylist to cut it this way. My current weight is the result of the kinds and portions of food I eat, and the amount of exercise I get. If I modified those things, my weight would change. What’s the hold up here?

Am I supposed to mistake this for an actual answer to my question? No wonder the Law Library hates you.

Isn’t this the entire function of the internet - bickering about unimportant shit.

I’m pretty sure Al Gore got into a big set-to over why fat people are fat on DARPANET back on October 29, 1969. It just took longer.

So you don’t think that decreasing your caloric intake or raising your caloric needs such that intake < need is the way to lose weight? I’d love to hear your theory.

Well, those people quite obviously aren’t me. So why are you waving your flag in **my **face?

Okay, sorry, Mr. Semantic Hairs. The fat person has not learned to balance their caloric intake against their caloric needs, and the thin person either has an easy natural balance or has learned to balance it themselves. Does **that **explain it for you in a satisfactory way? You still seem to be willfilly ignoring my main points: staying thin is going to be **much **harder for some people, but there is still no one literally forcing them to take in more calories than their body needs.

Obesity is a much larger (heh) problem in the U.S. than it is in many other countries. Clearly, the problem has something to do with our culture–this isn’t about how people are innately built, but about how they’re shaped by their families, by our culture, by our companies. And yes, to truly fix this problem we have to address ultimate causes, but one fat person cannot change the world: what they **can **change is the things they, themself, personally have control over–namely, their caloric intake and their caloric requirements.

The discussion’s been all over the board. This is my particular thread of it. I was just getting sick of the vibe I was getting from certain posters who popped in to defend Ms. Fat Stranger.

I am currently working on a screenplay for a new show. It will be called “Fat Police”, featuring a misfit crew of porcine policepeople who will battle crime, educate the public about fat acceptance, and develop new recipes using a combination of butter, Dorito crumbs, and porkbellies that they refer to as “Felon Apprehension Tactical Snack”.

I am deep in negotiations with Jerry Bruckheimer, but he did give me the green light to share some details. The opening sequence will feature the obese officers engaging in spectacularly improbable antics, like vaulting over a bannister, at which point we will freeze frame. These will be juxtaposed with shots of each of the main characters doing yoga/aerobics/competitive cycling. At the end of the title, we will most likely cut to a group shot of them laughing together; HD will help here with the wider aspect ratio.

I proposed the show to Jerry as a combination of C.H.I.P.s, CSI (Miami, not LV), and Simon to Simon, but with fat people. There is a slight problem, because the only two cast members we can find are Kevin James and John Goodman. Most likely we’ll have to get skinny girl from the WB and throw her in a fat suit. We anticipate this will be a draw because our target demographics respond much better to sexy actresses playing unattractive people, as it keeps the dream alive.

Look for a 2 hour pilot episode in the spring, guest starring Jared the Subway Guy as a maniacal cult leader leaving a trail of staved corpses in his wake, with a special appearance by Oprah.

Just cast Scarlett Johansson as the female lead. She’s a behemoth by TV standards, and the buzz about whether she’s fat, skinny or voluptuous will help build the buzz before the premier date.

Wow. Way to pay attention.

Should you take the time to read more carefully, with a focus on comprehension, I’ll be glad to continue the discussion.

Sigh…