I don’t think they can be in his possession regardless of their classification. They’re gov docs, right?
FBI Search and Seizure at Trump's Mar-A-Lago Residence, August 8, 2022, Case Dismissed July 15, 2024
Sure it is. But is that really what is going to bring down Donald Trump? They better be some pretty damn explosive documents.
It’s Al Capone on tax fraud, but with 40% of the country ready to vote Capone for President…
AIUI, at certain levels of classification, no president has the authority to declassify without going through a very extensive process. He did not follow these protocols, so his assertion that he “ordered them declassified” will have no effect on the stolen documents at these highest classification levels.
They have it. They need to establish Trump’s intent to mishandle. The June subpoena establishes that intent. Trump was advised that he was illegally in possession of the documents and he needed to return them. He didn’t. Boom, intent for a nefarious purpose established.
Yeah, maybe. We shall see if they press charges on this. They probably should, but I’m not convinced it will go the way many on this thread (myself included) hope.
Because ultimately they already got the story out there that the President intended to declassify the documents. And that he was happy to return them. And now they are returned. So are you really going to lock up a potential political opponent over that?
I know you must be aware of how many guilty defendants lie to avoid prosecution. This is no different, and it’s not a basis to avoid prosecution if the case is well made. I believe it is.
Like Merrick Garland keeps saying, he will proceed without fear or favor wherever the evidence leads. That’s how it should be done. I have confidence in him.
Whatever happens, I think the minimum outcome of all this is TFG being disqualified from holding federal office ever again. Even if he never sees the inside of a jail cell, all the Republican hijinx to “adjust” election results with their whole voter subversion thing, would still not result in him taking up residence in the White House ever again. While not perfect, and I am hoping for more, that would still be okay. As a minimum.
Wouldn’t they know whether he declassified them or not already during the months of trying to get them back? Or not necessarily?
Also, that made me think, are the “Top Secret”, etc descriptors on the Property List just copied from what is actually typed on the documents? Meaning, at one point they were stamped Top Secret, but we’re not making a decision they still are or are not today.
I could totally live with that. I would not bet any of my own money on it happening, but I could happily live with that outcome.
Yes. It is “Documents marked TS/SCI” for example. Their actual classification level would be a factual issue during any potential trial, I suppose.
In my professional life I saw many documents improperly marked (either they had been downgraded, mismarked, etc). What makes a document classified isn’t the marking, it’s the content.
I ain’t no lawyer but there is something called US Code Title 18 [Crimes and Criminal Procedure] Part I [Crimes] Chapter 37 [Espionage and Censorship] Section 793:
Emphasis added.
So then, if you know, if a document that was Top Secret, doing it the proper way, was to be declassified, would that document forever say “Top Secret” or would the declassified version have the classification mark removed?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - hell no we don’t want him here in Kansas. Send him to Gitmo - that’s why we left it open, right?
I would almost forgive the crime that is Gitmo if you guys manage that;)
Nevermind.
Oh, absolutely! I mean, it’d also be different if he said them during a police interview, if he “pulled a Smollett,” so to speak.
And that’s why I think he should have the opportunity to make those statements to an officer of the law. If there are actual crimes that were committed, he needs to let investigators know.
Similarly, if he makes these statements under penalty of obstructing an investigation, it’ll be clear that he’s serious, not just bullshitting us like he’s been doing for the past 20 or so years.
Re: the ‘I declassified all those documents’ defense – didn’t another poster (in this thread, I think) tell us that there is a category or categories of documents that cannot be declassified by the president, due to their extremely sensitive nature? Like, say, nuclear information?
Maybe that’s why (to the best of my knowledge) he hasn’t blustered about declassifying documents as (one of) his defense(s).
Look at this one.
The relevant portion:
The Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954 produced an even stranger category of classified knowledge. Anything related to the production or use of nuclear weapons and nuclear power is inherently classified, and Trump could utter whatever words he pleased yet still be in possession of classified material. Where are our nuclear warheads? What tricks have we developed to make sure they work? This information is “born secret” no matter who produces it. The restrictions on documents of this type are incredibly tight. In the unlikely event that Trump came up with a new way to enrich uranium, and scribbled it on a cocktail napkin poolside at Mar-a-Lago early this year, that napkin would instantly have become a classified document subject to various controls and procedures, and possibly illegal for the former president to possess.
So in all likelihood, the “I declassified them!” defense won’t work, if these are the kind of secrets some are speculating they are.
Yes, people misremember the Rosenberg case and erroneously talk about them being convicted for treason. They weren’t. They were convicted and executed for espionage.
On March 29, 1951, the court convicted Julius and Ethel Rosenberg of conspiracy to commit espionage. On April 5, Judge Kaufman sentenced them to death, and sentenced Sobell to 30 years in prison.
Gift link:
As a result, the Espionage Act makes no reference to whether a document has been deemed classified. Instead, it makes it a crime to retain, without authorization, documents related to the national defense that could be used to harm the United States or aid a foreign adversary.
Prosecutors could argue that a document meets that act’s standard regardless of whether Mr. Trump had pronounced it unclassified short before leaving office; by the same token, defense lawyers could argue that it fell short of that standard regardless of how it had been marked.
I admit, I’m hoping the next shoe will drop; Investigation of Saudi nationals who are suspected of working with a high ranking former US elected official to obtain secret US nuclear material…
Biden just got back from Saudi Arabia a few weeks ago, to beg them to drop gas prices…