1.) Prove to me that the Jews were going away from God’s plan. Give me three definite examples of how the Jews of the period 1900-1930 were in some way not following God’s plan in a way that the Jews of 1948-2001 are.
If you can do that, also explain to me how you can worship a God that not only allows these ‘away-from God’s path’ Jews to be killed, but also allows those Jews who did keep their convenant with God, and those Jews too young to understand a covenant with God, to be brutalized, tortured, and killed.
Or:
2.) Hide behind the awful, awful idea that because something horrible happened to the Jews, they must have done something horrible to deserve it (i.e., they wandered away from God, and therefore it was okay to have them slaughtered). By that same token, the people working in the WTC must have been horrible sinners to deserve their fate on the 11th.
If you do that, then I will once again state that God has a great racket- he gets credit for the good things that happen, and when bad things happen, he’s blameless- either humans did it, Satan did it, or the victim did it by not believing in God enough.
Yes, but elsewhere events such as the Babylonian Exile WERE said to be caused by a slipping of religious practices. Then there’s the Deluge and Sodom and other examples of God saying that the tragedies were specifically brought about by sin. In many respects Job is an exception and this is one of them.
Jobe is a tough one. I have seen different studies on why God allowed that stuff to happen to Jobe. One was that God used Jobe as an example for all of us that no matter what happens keep your faith in God and He will prevail for you. The other one is maybe Jobe’s only fear was loosing the things He had and God let the Devil take those things away from Him to show Him that faith in God is really all we need. That is my take on the life of Jobe.
John C,
I have an answer for you but I am a little hesitant to post it because I don’t feel like getting flamed to death for an opinion of mine.
Jobe is a tough one. I have seen different studies on why God allowed that stuff to happen to Jobe. One was that God used Jobe as an example for all of us that no matter what happens keep your faith in God and He will prevail for you. The other one is maybe Jobe’s only fear was loosing the things He had and God let the Devil take those things away from Him to show Him that faith in God is really all we need. That is my take on the life of Jobe.
John C,
I have an answer for you but I am a little hesitant to post it because I don’t feel like getting flamed to death for an opinion of mine.
G-d did not bestow talents or wisdom on Jews by virtue of “choosing” them. What He bestowed on us was the responsibility of following all gazillion of His commandments. It’s actually more of a burden to have been chosen, rather than a benefit (though that doesn’t mean there are no benefits, it’s just that whatever benefits exist are only achieved through accepting the associated responsibilities, which ain’t easy.)
Is this starting to make a bit more sense to you, Bill?
Screw the discussion about left-handed “compliments”, take a look at the above!
So, WB, how exactly…in detail, mind you…did the Jews “go their own way” to cause the Holocaust? Were German Jews worshipping idols to Baal en masse? Sacrificing Christian Babies for their to make their matzo? Not “wheeling and dealing” enough?
This is one of the most disgusting statements I have ever read on the boards. Bill, if your god really caused the Holocaust because he believed that Jews were “going their own way”, then you worship an evil creature that has nothing in common with the gentle, loving God that Polycarp believes in.
Is the God you worship different then the God Poly does? I thought they are one in the same?
Secondly I am not sure exactly why the Halocaust happened? My guess if you want to know is I think the Devil possessed Hitler and made him a madman. Just as He is doing with Sudam Hussien now. The Devil hates Jews because y’all are indeed chosen people because you chose to believe in Him and followed His law. So the Devil would love to wipe all the Jews out.
Secondly, you sound very mad at me. It is not my fault or my doing in any way of what happened at the Halocaust.
Oh no. Not again. You’ve played the “But gawrsh. Whudid I do?” card once too often.
You said:
Your words: “God allows (persecution) to happen”. In other words, your holy thug is an inteventionist creature who stops horrors from occuring until he gets into a divine snit and then allows atrocities to befall his chosen people. Good chunks of Europe were turned into a abbitoir for Jews (as well as others, of course), apparently, in your mind and your “god’s” because Jews deserved it (by “going their own way”).
I can accept a God who chooses not to intervene physically, at all. I won’t accept a capricious one. Or an evil one.
Have you read much of the Bible Fenris? What about what happened to the Jews that God rescued out of Egypt and they mocked God (making a golden calf)while Moses was getting the 10 Commandments from Him. Then after that he made them wander around until they(that generation) and Moses had died until he delivered them into the Holy Land.
Is this not the same God you worship? I mean do you not worship the God of the old Testament?
Bill asked for my 10c on Jews as Chosen People and the rest of us as Second Choice.
He’s on target according to what Paul has to say. Though my impression is that in both Jewish and Christian exegesis the Jews are Chosen as Examples, not as “Teacher’s Pets.” (I’d love to see that confirmed or corrected by one or more scholarly Jews and somebody like Tom~ of tomndebb.)
By coincidence, when I saw Bill’s question, I had just addressed much the same point in response to Fenris’s questioning of what Bill’s view of Christianity said about Jews at this post.
Yes, Bill, I have read the Bible. Both Testaments. Several translations of each. I’ve even read the “grownup” version with all words and no pop-up pictures.
**
Um. Do you see the difference between letting people grow old and die, while making sure they’re fed and cared for (albeit in harsh, yet survivable conditions) and tourturing, maming and slaughtering people.
As an aside, I’m not a Bible literalist. But the point of the story is that God let the old generation that had shown grave disrespect pass away before letting the new generation into the promised land. Surely you see a difference between that and setting up ovens and gas-chambers.
I believe in the God of the Original Testament. That’s NOT the same guy as “The Father” that Christians believe in (the Father’s part of a Trinity, my God “is one”) and it’s not the same guy as the “You dissed me, so it’s the ovens for you” creature that you seem to believe in.