It’s not nitpicking to clarify, I even considered that while I was typing my original response, I thought "hmm, is the original list “anded” or “or’ed”.
I am absolutely open to being corrected, as we all should be.
Wrong.
I said the ones doing the rioting and looting should be dealt with.
I also said “appropriately treated”.
What indifference?
No, you said
You are first making the assumption that there is a governing body of these protesters, that they could make such a decision, and that everyone would get the memo.
Then you are making the assertion that anyone who does show up is fair game for being shot or tear gassed, even if they haven’t actually done anything.
Then you are saying that it is ever right for anyone to be “disappeared”. I don’t care who you are or what you have done, you get due process, you don’t just get thrown in a hole somewhere to rot while anyone who cares about you has no idea what has happened.
Oh, or “appropriately treated”, that makes it all okay.
I just re-read this post and realized you might be thinking that I posted the original list? Because my post in which I quoted Broomstick, I only referred to “shot”, not “disappear”.
I was responding to:
He/She/It was making the assumption you are complaining about.
Why? Everything has to be about the US or Trump (used to be about Bush or Obama, but the US…generally being evil…seems a fairly constant theme that can never be escaped), so I decided that bringing in China when it’s relevant is just turn about. 
Sorry, but this whole ‘Trump and the US are going/are already fascist’ schtick gets as old as right wingers fretting that everything is about a left wing socialist/communist take over. It really is all about who’s gore is being oxed on this one, and to me both sides here are a bit ridiculous. YMMV of course. I do agree that what Trump et al are doing with respect to sending in federal officers is troubling and I think yet another indication of how badly we need that idiot out of the White House.
No, they were making an impractical suggestion, one that it seemed that you were agreeing with, under the idea that once the peaceful protesters were advised to stay home, the rest could be treated lets say, “appropriately.”
You object to appropriate treatment of offenders?
But we are talking about Portland. A city in the US. And we are talking about US law enforcement, both federal and local. China has nothing to do with this. Nothing. Seriously, nothing at all. There is no reason to bring up China unless your goal is to distract from talking about Portland, the US federal law enforcement, or the administration that gives them orders. Once again, nothing to do with China.
If you see the US as evil, then that is on you. I see the US as flawed, and heading down a dangerous path, but if that is how you define evil, then you are the one who is making such a declaration.
Okay, so your official position is that it cannot ever happen here, and anything that we see that indicates that it may and that we need to be vigilante about is just a “shtick”.
The fact that Trump and Obama are indistinguishable to you, as are the criticisms of same, does not actually mean that they are the same. It just means that you are engaging in bothsidesism, and not even bothering to explain or defend, but only to assert said position.
Your position is noted.
I object to what you listed off as appropriate. Did you not see the “scare quotes”?
Still see you cannot defend your earlier desire to have some undesirables “disappeared.”
Why?
Are you aware that the Geneva Conventions bars the use of it in warfare? Is it not a chemical weapon? If it’s banned in WAR why is it OK to use on unarmed civilians?
It’s illegal to kidnap people off the street, to start. That is, “disappearing” them.
It SHOULD be illegal to use chemical weapons banned in warfare on civilians but it’s a sign of how screwed up we are as a nation that it’s not.
Read my lips: Appropriately treated.
And where exactly did I say I think that is okay?
You noted it, but you obviously don’t understand it. I didn’t say there was no distinction between Obama and Trump…that is a truly mindboggling strawman of your own manufacturing. I said that whether you think there is an ongoing left wing socialist/communist take over happening or a right wing fascist one depends on which part of the political extreme you happen to side with. Obviously, your own is apparent.
At any rate, I don’t see much point in going on here with this. I was annoyed earlier, posted my annoyance, which is always a mistake, and that just unleashed the fury. My post about China was simply peripheral notation about folks focusing on some things while ignoring others and, as you noted, has little to do with the main topic of this thread, despite your attempt to that a central theme of my post. You either purposely or whatever misconstrue other things I say to gain points or whatever you are doing, and I’m just not into that game so, ado.
Maybe no one can answer this… but at what point does an individual human being inside a camo uniform, face shield, and helmet, armed with a big, ol’ scary battlefield weapon say to himself (are there any women in those stormtrooper getups?), “This is just wrong! My superiors have ordered me to take actions that I know are wrong. I can’t and won’t do it anymore. If I get fired, I’ll do something else, but my conscience won’t allow me to continue this unethical crowd control.”
Yes, I know some cops and soldiers go blind, deaf, and especially dumb to ethics. And I know these guys need their paychecks, they have bills, mortgage payments, car payments. And I know about mob mentality and the thin blue line, etc., etc. But these are regular people doing this to their fellow human beings. They are fathers, husbands, sons, churchgoers (and not ALL churchgoers are bad either). They love their kids and their dogs and their fishing trips and watching the sunset with their wives. They’ve buried parents and siblings and maybe children. They put their camo pants on one leg at the time like the rest of us.
I’m not asking if there are rotten apples in the barrel. Clearly there are and we have video to prove it. For the purposes of my question, let’s not go there right now.
I’m asking about the ones who aren’t the rotten apples. The ones who are appalled by what their superiors are ordering them to do. The ones who are shocked and sickened by the anger and fear they see in the eyes of the individuals their superiors tell them to subdue and control using violence.
What about them? At what point does an individual say, “No more!”
If possible, I’d like some sincere, straight answers and not just comments dripping with cynicism and bitterness, but I realize that may be too much to ask.
So anybody who happened to be walking down the street could be assumed to be bent on violence and ought to be rounded up?
In any case, that doesn’t address my point, which is that Trump and his administration want to silence legitimate protest. If legitimate protestors are supposed never to show up because somebody might start throwing things, and anyone who does show up can be assumed to be about to start throwing things and should be “rounded up”, then there can’t be any protest at all; and the suppression becomes effective.
For the third time: are you saying that disappearing people is appropriate treatment?
Because that’s the only sense I can make out of:
I thought at first that I might be being wooshed; but I don’t see why you wouldn’t have said so by now. I don’t think I can put it better than k9bfriender:
Plus which, the additional thing about due process and not disappearing people is that it provides a way to weed out at least some of the innocent. Governments that disappear people don’t only disappear the ones actually guilty of anything.
There is good reason why the Sixth Amendment requires public trials.
Define “appropriately treated”.
And, if you finally produce a definition that excludes “disappearing”, kindly explain how that got into your post in the first place, and why you’ve been refusing to specifically disavow it.
I’m still waiting for you to point to a definition of fascism that you’re working off of that needs death camps before it can properly be called “fascism,” rather than being alarmist.
Because here’s the thing. I consider myself somewhat left leaning. I’m fine with some level of socialism (well beyond what we have now)—I just didn’t realize it until I understood what “socialism” really is, rather than how it was being used as a sort of dirty word by conservatives and liberals alike. So it’s not that far of a stretch for me to imagine my counterpart on the right being okay with fascism, even if they don’t really know what “fascism” means and how it manifests.
So, again, what’s your definition of fascism?
To paraphrase from Wiki, far-right, authoritarian ultra-nationalism characterized by dictatorial powers, forcible suppression of opposition, strong regimentation of society and nationalization of the economy. While I can see why some of you think we are there already or headed there, the facts and actual history and how actual fascist regimes came into power (or communist ones on the other side) don’t back that up…same as they don’t back up the US moving towards a left wing socialist/communist system. It’s about who’s ox is being gored or who’s gore is being oxed.
As to death camps, I didn’t say anything about them except to point out that ACTUAL death camps that are ACTUALLY happening right now and for years get basically nada around here, while fictitious ones that might happen in the US get endless ranting and hand wringing. Sometimes the hypocrisy makes me furious, but I’ve learned that things are what they are and most don’t even see it.
That seems like a pretty good read of the way Trump is going, apart from maybe nationalization of the economy, which does not seem to be a uniformly recognized component of fascism.
So whether America ever gets to full on fascism or not, recent event seem to be taking us that way if nothing is done to stop it.