FEMA concentration camps?

Factual Questions
1

I got this passed along to me and it would have seemed silly a few months ago but now that Bush has declared that secret military courts are the best way to deal justice this has more likelihood that before.

"Did you know 184 concentration camps are built and empty, with full FEMA staff right now? Did you know only 7% of FEMA’s money goes to natural disaster? The rest goes in DOD work facilites. Prison camps. They are state of the art and empty–but the lights are always on. And the barbed wire faces inward.

and a somewhat related matter:
"All but three brave Congressmen voted for the USAPAct.
Todayit was released no-one was allowed to even read it, just were told to vote yes. 3 congressmen said if our forefathers were here it would be a revolution. Goodbye 1st and 4th Amendment. Here’s a link:
http://insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=143236

2

ummmm… that is most likely a load of good old fashioned crapola

3

I can’t help but wonder what constitutes a “state of the art” prison camp.

4

I think someone has been playing too much “Deus Ex”.

It’s all in your imagination, my friend JC here will now show you to some helpful doctors.

5

I have a friend that works in FEMA. He says they don’t have camps, but he knows of several agency-sponsored vacation spots that are sure to become all the rage for tourists sometime soon. :wink:

On a more serious note, the “USA PATRIOT” Act is quite real; here is at least some of the text (I don’t know how truthful is the claim that it is 300+ pages long) and here is one analysis of it.

6

If your friend knows there are exactly 184 camps ready and waiting, he should have no problem providing you with the locations of all 184. Then it’s a simple matter to call the local newspapers, TV stations, ACLU chapters, etc. and start the public outcry.

Since Mrs. Kunilou’s parents were in actual, real camps during World War II you’ll forgive me if my family and I react negatively over an unsubstantiated e-mail.

7

Yep, its all true, I know 'cause I read it on the net,
and you know they wouldn’t be allowed to up load it
if it was not true, see for your self - this guy even
has PICTURES!

http://www.freedomdomain.com/concamp.html

8

It was part of my job to read the whole PATRIOT act… yes it gives the government new powers to try and fight terrorism but it certainly was available for all members of congress and civilians to read it. no one voted for it without reading it. thats just hogwash.
if you want to read it for yourself try
thomas.loc.gov
type in patriot act
then settle in for 300 pages of legislative wizardry.

9

tramp, thanks for the link. I’m actually gonna try to sit down and read this thing over the next couple of days - I hear a lot about it (almost entirely unpleasant) and I’d like to familiarize myself with it.

Trouble is, there seem to be four versions on the Thomas engine - RDS, EH, ENR, and IH. Is there any fundamental difference between them, and which is the version that was passed by both houses of Congress?

10

Well, no one voted for it without being able to read it.

I’m quite willing to believe that somewhere among the 535 members of Congress, there are probably one or two who are too lazy or stupid. (Trafficant, for example, was probably trying to put together his legal defense.) On the other hand, Ron Paul has demonstrated less than sterling qualities on several occasions, so I’m not surprised that he claimed that no one could read it.

(I suspect that there is stuff in there that I oppose and stuff that would require a Renhquist court to sustain, but the idea that it was passed “in secret” (with every news organization watching and reporting its creation) is simply loony.)

11

There is a certain irony here in that the Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists have in the past claimed that the supposed FEMA concentration camps are there to imprison all the patriotic Americans once the evil Clintonites have implemented their Big Government takeover.

12

Shucks, tomndebb beat me to it. I would hazard a guess that the majority of legislators did not read more than a dozen pages of any 300 page bill, and I would also hazard a guess that not more than a dozen legislators read all 300+ pages. After all, that’s why they have staff, isn’t it? Obviously unverifiable conjecture on my part, though.

And, being very familiar with state legislative processes, Olentzero, I’d assume the ENR version is the one that passed, ENR probably meaning “enrolled,” which in many states is the version of a bill that has returned to the house of introduction after being amended in the second house, and only awaits the governor’s signature (although I have a nagging feeling that the similar term on the Hill is “embossed,” so perhaps you should wait for tramp to return before you start reading the 300 pages).

13

That sounds about right, johnson. Off the top of my head, the four abbreviations were:

ENR - Enrolled in Senate
EH - Embossed in House
RDS - Regsitered(?) in Senate
IH - Introduced in House

Unless tramp violently disagrees with you on this point, I’m going with the ENR version. I don’t expect to read every last jot and tittle - just the parts that concern themselves with the combating of domestic terrorism, since those seem to be the really nasty parts.

14

There’s no irony. Patriotic, in their terms, means someone who is loyal to the Constitution and the principles this country was founded on. Not loyal to the current government, who may or may not be wiping their ass with the Constitution.

15

Didn’t get back here fast enough. :slight_smile: All the versions were extremely similar… but the ENR should do a body good. Also, there are references to other pieces of legislation, so if you want to understand the bill, be prepared to reference thomas again.
lol about trafficant… anyone see his new website where he’s “beating out crime” with a 2 by 4… hilarious
have fun reading the patriot act, i know i did

16

Well, I read the act. Here’s a summary.

  1. A new fund is set up called “The Counterterrorism fund” which can be used to aid in terrorist investigations, pay money to informants, be given to gov’t agencies damaged by terrorism, and doing threat assessments.

  2. Arabs and Muslims are good people and the Congress doesn’t think people should pick on them.

  3. The FBI’s technical support center gets 200 M, in 2002,2003,and 2004

  4. There’s a change to the US code to remove the word “chemical” from the terrorism law, so “a weapon of mass destruction (other than a chemical weapon as that term is defined in section 229F)” becomes “a weapon of mass destruction (other than a weapon as that term is defined in section 229F)”

  5. The Secret Service is ordered to set up a national network of electronic crime task forces

  6. If the U.S. is attacked or we are in a state of hostilities, the president may sieze the property of any individual, group, or country that was involved in the attack and use it if he sees fit. If the evidence is classified, the government can submit it to the courts secretly, and privately. No judicial review is implied by the section.

  7. With a warrant, the gov’t can wiretap the phones of those suspected of terrorism. The gov’t also, with a warrant, can wiretap the phones of those suspected of computer fraud or abuse.

  8. Grand jury information can be disclosed to federal law enforcement officers if it includes evidence of intelligence, counterintelligence, or terrorism. The same is true for wiretap info or any other info relating to intelligence, counterintelligence, or terrorism.

  9. “Electronic” information has been added to the list of things you can’t intercept unless you’re an authorized gov’t agency with a warrant.

  10. The FBI should hire translators and the Attorney General should report to the Congress on how many translators the FBI has.

  11. It increases the abilities to carry out nondisclosed survelience on foreign nationals and increases the amount of time the surveliance can be carried out. It also increases the number of judges on the panel able to authorize surveliance from 7 to 11, and at least 3 of them have to live near Washington, DC.

  12. The FBI can sieze voice mail

  13. It expands the amount of information regarding phone records the FBI can get, by letting them take the credit card information or bank account number used to pay for the calls/phone service.

  14. The FBI is not allowed to find out what programs you ordered from a cable operator. Smutty pay per view watchers, rejoice!

  15. ISPs and remote electronic subscription services (“RESS”) can relay private information about their subscribers/users to the gov’t if the ISP/RESS operator believes someone is in immediate danger.

  16. The gov’t doesn’t need to notify you of a search warrant or court order immediately, if they believe that that notification will have an adverse result, the warrant prohibits the siezure of property, except for certain electronic data, or the court finds such siezure neccessary, and the warrant gives a final date that notice has to be made by.

  17. The gov’t can wiretap against those suspected of terrorism, but not against a US citizen if their only evidence is information protected under the 1st Amendment

  18. The FBI can request a search warrant for tangible things against those suspected of terrorism, but not against a US citizen if their only evidence is info protected under the 1st Amendment.

  19. The gov’t has to keep records of all phonetaps they make.

  20. The gov’t has the right to intercept information transmitted by computer if the individual on the computer isn’t supposed to be there…i.e. a hacker trying to break into a system.

  21. Federal magistrate judges within the jurisdiction the warrant will occur, can issue search warrants for investigation of terrorism.

  22. Trade sanctions are imposed against the Taliban.

  23. If the gov’t is engaging in a wiretap, no private citizen needs to help them and anyone who provides assistance will be compensated for any reasonable expenditures.

  24. If any information revealed in a wiretap is improperly leaked, the individual who leaks it is subject to administrative discipline by his agency, and the person who is the subject of the leak can sue them.

There then is a long section on money laundering requiring domestic banks to cooperate with the treasury department with regard to disclosure of international accounts owned by known or suspected terrorist groups, and saying that international money laundering can be prosecuted in the US. There is also set up a “Financial Crimes Enforcement Network” under the Treasury department. Penalties for money laundering and accepting bribes are increased, as are penalties for counterfitting either domestic or foreign currency.

We then pass to immigration. The amount of border control agents on the Canadian border are tripled. Before the State Department grants a visa, the FBI is supposed to give them any information they have on the applicant. An electronic system should be set up so that federal agencies can share information on those people seeking visas. The INS is now allowed to pay its employees overtime. The fingerprint identification system used to identify those people seeking visas should be updated. Those individuals who are members of terrorist groups, or publicly endorse terrorist groups, as well as their spouse and children are not allowed in the country, unless the spouse or children have renounced those views. The attorney general can detain any alien who is a terrorist or suspected of being a terrorist until he is deported. After the suspected terrorist has been in prison 7 days, though, the AG must either charge the alien with a crime, begin removal proceedures, or let him go. A task force should be tasked to create an integrated visa entry/exit system, and the Office of Homeland Security should have representatives on the task force. The visas of foreign students should be monitored. All visas should become machine readable. Aliens who are spouses or children of people killed in terrorist actions may remain in this country for up to 1 year after the terrorist action, and any alien required to leave the US who can not because of the terrorist action will not be in this country illegally, so long as he leaves by November 11. There are then other waivers of certain INS requirements for non-citizen spouses and children of those killed in terrorist actions, and then a provision stating that none of these waivers apply to the spouses or children of terrorists.

The Attorney General and Sec. of State are authorized to pay rewards for information leading to the capture of terrorists. Educational records of suspected terrorists may be requested.

There is then a section authorizing expedited payment of salaries for public safety officers injured or killed in the attack, and the formation of a fund for those who were injured or killed and their families, and gov’t assistance promised.

The law against terrorism is strengthened, terrorism is redefined, and it is illegal to harbor a known terrorist. There will be no statute of limitation for some terrorist offenses.

The CIA’s ability to use foreign intel. information is strenghened, and there are other calls for interagency cooperation and task forces.

The Justice Department should have an official whose job it is to investigate any civil rights complaints against the Justice Department, and detail any civil rights abuses by the Justice Department to Congress.

Congress also declares that Sikhs are good people, many of them are American citizens, they aren’t even Muslim, and they shouldn’t be discriminated against or harrassed.

The Attorney General should give money to local emergency response teams to improve their abilities.

More money is authorized for the DEA to train people in Turkey.

Money launderers can’t come to the US.

There’s more about the fingerprint system, and then temporary authorization for state and local law enforcement agencies to provide security at military bases while Enduring Freedom is occuring.

Punishment against those who fraudulently solicit for charities is increased.

There’s a new limitation on the granting of HAZMAT licenses.

Congress is opposed to bioterrorism.

There are more kinds of grants to state and local law enforcement.

Congress is opposed to the infrastructure being damaged, thinks it should be disrupted as little as possible, and has given money to DoD to simulate the effects of attacks on our infrastructure.

There’s probably more that I missed, but that’s the highlights.

17

Is this the act that the RIAA tried to sneak in the “we can delete your mp3s with impunity and immunity! ha ha ha” clause?

18

Paint Me Impressed!

I never did understand the Right Wing (note caps) paranoia about FEMA. Apparently, if there is an emergency, “they” have the right and privilege of suspending civil rights and implementing martial law until the emergency is over?

In other words, if a huge hurricane wreaks Florida, they can go in, sieze the state, start the FEMA Nation, create their own currency, and invite holed up Coloradians who’ve been trying to do the same for a decade to join them?

A i close?

During Seattle’s infamous WTO, certain rights were suspended, and the police and officials claimed it was allowed during emergencies. So apparently this right does not ONLY apply to FEMA. Do these same Right Wingers (note caps) fear all police, elected officials and the National Guard as well?

Sorry, this is kind of a hijack. I think I’ll start a GQ thread.

19

Well, am I the only one working on the FEMA concentration camps thingie?

This website has a list of “U.S. concentration camps”. I’m going to focus on the one supposedly in Marseilles, Illinois, even though it doesn’t say “FEMA” on the website, because I’m living in Illinois. Unfortunately I am too far away to drive up there and eyeball the site, but I can look at my DeLorme Illinois Gazeteer.

http://www.mumia.org/wwwboard/messages/2038.html

Okay. I’m sitting here with an Illinois gazetteer on my lap. The intersection of U.S. Route 6 and Interstate 80 looks like it’s probably a fairly busy one. Not only is there the interstate itself running east-west, but also the old road, part of which is now designated U.S. 6, parallels I-80 all along it, about a mile south of it.

Then there’s the Illinois River, which is still a major barge traffic waterway. Then there’s the fact that this is excellent farmland, and going by what I recall from my last camping trip up to Starved Rock State Park, the farmhouses are all about a mile apart, with the occasional subdivision here and there.

This intersection is only a few miles from towns such as Morris, Seneca, and Marseilles, and is only about 10 to 20 miles from larger cities such as Ottawa and the LaSalle/Peru complex.

There’s a huge borrow pit right at the intersection, which probably attracts a fair number of fishermen.

There’s the Chessie Railroad tracks, which parallel Route 6 and I-80, and the river.

There’s the Illinois & Michigan Canal State Historic site, which also parallels all these things. It’s a crowded place. Two roads, a canal, and a railroad, all crammed in there on the north side of the river, a mile or two south of the supposed “concentration camp”.

Then there’s the LaSalle/Peru powerplant, across the river, about 6 miles as the crow flies.

This section of the Illinois River is heavily used by recreational boaters, fisherman, other sportsmen (the Marseilles Wildlife Area is just across the river).

What I’m getting at is, this is hardly the “boondocks”. It’s not even a single “boondock”. It’s a busy, populated place, with a good deal of traffic. Why in the world would anybody put a concentration camp here, at this particular intersection, when they could move it only 20 miles in any direction and have perfect “boondocks” privacy?

Answer–the person who located it at this particular intersection was just making it up out of whole cloth, going by what’s in the Rand McNally, with its lack of detail, and lack of on-the-ground knowledge.

The Marseilles Prison Camp, at least, is an Urban Legend.

20

(from Mumia link above) “Washington: Okanogan County borders Canada and is a site for a massive concentration camp capable of holding hundreds of thousands of people.”

Unless I get more info, I cannot do much more. Okanogan is the largest county in WA, and very rural. I’ve lived and visited Okanogan many times and know nothing about said concentration camp…