Fighting a speeding ticket when the cop lies about factors related to the ticket.

In My Humble Opinion
1

I was pulled over in Tennessee for speeding. The police officer was driving towards me with one other vehicle in front of him when he put on his lights, passes by me, turned around, and pulled me over. I had no idea why he was pulling me over at first due to the fact I had not noticed a speed limit in miles and had been driving slowly enough that I was getting passed by other vehicles during open stretches on the 2 lane road. He asked if I knew why he pulled me over and I answered I had no idea. He told me I was going 49 in a 30. He asked for my information and went back to his car to run it. Few minutes later he is back with a ticket. I nicely asked if there was any way he could let me off with a warning explained that I had not seen any 30 MPH signs and was intentionally driving slow because I wasn’t seeing any signs. He said he couldn’t because school had let out early today and I could have hit one of the many kids running around. By the way, I hadn’t even entered the populated area yet, that was another few hundred feet ahead where I was about to turn. Nothing but road where I was currently. I asked him when I entered the 30 MPH zone (keep in mind I am not admitting to exceeding 30 and I don’t believe I was nearly the speed he says I went). He responded 2 miles ago and told me that I couldn’t have missed the signs because “he” (stating he himself) just put up 3 new 30 MPH speed signs in the past few weeks I driven by. He had me sign for the ticket and 2 minutes later I reached my destination. And no, I have NEVER been to this area in my life, I was driving slowly because I didn’t know the area and I was about to make a turn so I was looking ahead to figure out which left turn the GPS was referring to. I quickly found out from a local that school didn’t let out for another 1 hour ( the reason he could not give me a warning was school was already out, lie # 1), I went back and recorded the strip of road and aside from discovering the last 55 MPH signs were 7+ miles back, I discovered there were 2 30 MPH signs (1 obviously old, the other possibly newer, lie # 2 lack of 3 signs as stated). I also found that from the point I entered the 30 MPH zone to the point I came to a stop was .5 miles (lie #3, nowhere near 2 miles). Keep in mind during this .5 miles he had to pass me turn around and pull me over. Of course the DoT is responsible for the posting of speed limit signs (so unless this city operates differently and has cops go out and install brand new signs, lie #4). He did inform me that they had a very lenient judge and would likely let me off if I took a motor course. He never presented me with any proof of my speed or even how he tracked it.

This part is purely speculation, but I highly suspect he would have given me a warning if it wasn’t a 5 hour round trip to show up in court (he asked about where I was coming from prior to going to run my info).

My question is, how likely is it I would win if I drive back up, assuming he did show up in court? Can I question his integrity as a police officer and use that to protect myself and even against him personally? Is a cop allowed to lie to you concerning these factors?

At this point I’m a little beyond simply wanting to defend my rights and wondering if he could be prosecuted for his actions. I spent 4 years in the military as a cop. Civilian and Military Police may have many similarities but the legal details can differ greatly in some areas to my understanding. I never had to lie to an offender, that kind of stuff would get a violation tossed out in the military, and if I was in the same scenario as the officer I’d let them off, but maybe that is just me. I may opt out of even attempting to pursue prosecution because I realize right now, yes I’m very angry about all the lies he told me. That his reason for not giving me a warning was a lie, just man up and say I’m not going to because of whatever the real reason is. Don’t lie about kids being out of school for the day before 9 AM.

2

Good Fucking Luck with that.

Cops can and do fuck with people in vastly worse ways than that (like, for example, killing them) whenever they get a bug up their ass to do so, and get away with it. Witness all the recent news items, and recent threads here on SDMB about bad cops, inspired by all the recent high-profile shootings of (seemingly) innocent people.

You know the “Broken Windows” theory, which says that very petty civil disorders (like broken windows or jay-walking) should be prosecuted vigorously, on the theory that tolerance for all the petty disorder just breeds greater disorder.

Well, Ken White of Popehat points out that the same could and should be said about police misbehavior: The overly tolerant acceptance of bad cop behavior by our entire law enforcement and judicial systems just breeds greater and greater contempt for law and order by the police themselves.

But good luck if you want to challenge it. Can you provide photos of all those 30 MPH signs not being there?

Essay here, with umpteen links to further incidents of bad cop behavior: Broken Windows And Broken Lives, by Ken White at Popehat, December 4, 2014. Excerpt:

(BTW, I’m going to report your OP for consideration to move to IMHO, where this thread probably belongs.)

3

I recorded video of the road on my iPhone about 1 hours after the ticket was issued to collect evidence the cops story was false.

4

If the cop is a known liar to the commissioner hearing the case, you might win. Make a point that you were once military police. You are unlikely to win.

I challenge every ticket, and including for some trucking company clients when they think it important. I request a jury trial in writing before the hearing date and then at the hearing. Also a court reporter. They turn down those requests. Then they rule in my favor for another mysterious reason.

5

Also I’m not here for a debate about government corruption. I’m only interested in the legal rights I have concerning this matter and my options. Not to hate on cops. Please avoid self opinionated comments about the cops/judicial system itself.

6

Moderator Action

Legal advice is best suited to IMHO.

Moving thread from General Questions to In My Humble Opinion.

7

You didn’t mention whether or not you were guilty of speeding. From your description it seems likely that you were going faster than 30 mph, in which case why do you think you should be absolved of your moving violation?

When I went to “traffic school” for not coming to a full stop at a stop sign, everyone had to say why they were there. It amazed me that almost all of the “students” admitted their guilt but were mad at the officer for giving them a ticket.

8

Were you driving 49 in a 30 zone? If so, I don’t see why it matters what the officer told you. (Probably a good thing I’m not an LEO…I would never give warnings. Break the law, I ticket/arrest you would be my philosophy)

9

I suppose it’s too much to hope that your GPS is the fancy kind that records speed and progress information for later analysis.

10

Probably a bad idea to provide evidence in court that you used your phone while driving.

11

I agree with Antinor01 – it sounds like you were speeding, even if just by a half mile.

If you were, I’d advise paying the ticket. Avail yourself of any method they provide of keeping it off of your record (defensive driving, deferred adjudication, etc.), but I wouldn’t go into to court fighting a small offense (especially in a small town), where I was legally in the wrong.

12

Especially when it’s evidence against you, showing that the speed limit is actually marked twice.

13

Not concerned about them trying to hit me with using my iPhone while driving. I was using Google maps on my iPhone and it was mounted on the windshield. Perfectly legal to do. Same goes for when I recorded the video. Both started when at a complete stop. They can’t touch me for that.

14

From what you wrote, sounds to me like you were going 49 in the 55 zone, which explains why you were being passed so much. Then you cross into the 30 zone, and are pulled over half a mile into it while you maintained that 49 mph speed. In that half mile, there are two 30 mph speed limit signs, one old, one new, except that you didn’t see either of them the first time around.

Setting aside the things the cop said, is this an accurate description of what happened?

15

It sounds to me like you were going 49 in a 30 MPH zone, and were ticketed for doing 49 in a 30 MPH zone. The fact that the officer may have lied about why he “couldn’t” let you off with a warning is immaterial; if I were a judge, and you came to me with the story in the OP, there’s no way I’d let you off. Frankly, you come across rather whiny.

If you want to argue that you weren’t actually going 49 MPH, or that there was improper signage, you might have a better chance (assuming that you have some sort of supporting evidence), but any mention of the officer’s “lies” is only going to work against you.

16

You really do need to separate out the factual basis for the ticket from the attitude of the officer issuing it. If you were speeding in a marked zone, well, you’re pretty much going to lose no matter what kind of a jerk the officer was. As stated above, LEOs can and do go above and beyond the robotic facts-only mechanics of writing a ticket. Sometimes they’re very nice, explain why and offer you reductions etc… and sometimes they’re very rude and go out of their way to punish you extra by lying to and threatening you.

It’s an unfortunate fact that there are really no laws against being a jerk to other people. Telling lies about who put the sign up and when children get out of school wouldn’t invalidate the ticket. He has discretion to issue reductions or not… as long as he’s acting within the bounds of the laws he’s working with he doesn’t have to justify the decisions he makes within his discretionary bounds to you or anyone else. Maybe he didn’t like your attitude, maybe you remind him of another jerk he knows that got away, maybe he hates the manufactuaring company of the car you drive, maybe his own kid got run over by a speeder in that location 2 years ago; it doesn’t matter. If he issued a just ticket you’re unlikely to get out of it by basically saying you don’t like the guy because of X, Y, or Z.

Think about it the other way around: say you got the same speeding ticket for going 49 but the limit was actually 55 and the cop had no case. Do you think he could get the ticket upheld and fine you anyways by telling the judge that you were beligerant or lied about what your plans were for the afternoon (things that have nothing to do with the ticket)? And no, suggestion or even proving the officer said something untrue out there on the highway isn’t likely to cast doubt on his testimony or evidence. Were the lies he told integral to whether or not you were speeding? No, they were unrelated an thus irrelevant. Your chances of beating this ticket by arguing anything other than whether you were actually speeding in that zone (and having proof) are slim to none.

17

You don’t have much chance of winning this fight. Just pay the ticket, it sounds like you were speeding and the actions you’re complaining about have nothing to do with that. I’m surprised that as military cop you’d think that was some kind of defense. If you think this is a bad cop then a hearing over your ticket isn’t a good place to find a resolution for that.

18

The famous “Yes but” defense.

Were you speeding?
Yes but the cop lied to me about school being out.
Guilty.

Look up the statute. What are the elements of the violation? I guarantee it doesn’t mention anything about what the officer says when he gets to the window. There are only two things that matter. Did your actions meet the elements needed in that statute and can the prosecutor meet the burden of proof. Nothing else. If you have a complaint about his demeanor that is a separate issue that does not involve the court.

19

As a former cop, it pains me to admit that I have less and less respect for cops as I encounter them on occasion. That said, I know the job they have to do, and I don’t normally complain about it.

I’ve never had a moving violation in almost 40 years, except for speeding on an open highway. 55 just doesn’t cut it. Heading for Florida from anywhere? It takes time I’d rather be relaxing, dining, or golfing instead of driving. Sue me.

Heading to Athens from Atlanta to work a UGA game, I was stopped a few months ago by a local Sheriff’s deputy. 86 in a 55 zone. Well, I can tell I wasn’t driving 55, but neither was I pushing 90. There’s nothing you can do on the roadside, but I pulled the card from my front camera and saved it for later.

The ticket was notated with 1640 feet as the “speed locked in” distance. A little measuring on Google Earth along with knowing exactly to the foot where the motorcycle officer was sitting, and some simple math tells me my speed. Time over distance = speed. 69 MPH. Not 86. Not even near 86 by anyone’s measure.

I went to court and played the video for the prosecutor and gave him a worksheet with the math.
It’s really very simple. Even if we allow for some error in the start point of the measurement, or starting the stopwatch, we still can’t get past 72 or so. A far cry from the much more expensive 86 mph I might point out.

The prosecutor poo-pooed the tape, saying I may have been going faster earlier, but slowed down.

No, you can’t see a motorcycle sitting in a median 1,600 feet up the road with the sun just over the treeline in your face as you head east and take evasive action. Try it.

The judge refused to even watch the video, and judged me guilty. I have video proof that this deputy is grossly incompetent, his equipment is grossly un-calibrated, or he’s a god-damned liar, and no one seems to care.

We want to believe that traffic enforcement is all about public safety, but I was disabused of that notion many years ago.

It’s all about money, and nothing else. Running radar on one of the 5 highways approaching Athens, GA on gameday - or any other roads leading to any other college on Saturdays in the fall is like shooting fish in a barrel for cops. Knowing that most drivers aren’t local and won’t return there just to fight a ticket ensures that they just pay online, and the county gets new toys every quarter.
It’s highly unlikely that you will prevail, but your best bet is to retain an attorney who specializes in traffic cases. The only times I’ve ever beaten a questionable ticket was with an attorney. YMMV.

20

Thanks for the info, seems my best bet is to make it as expensive and inconvenient to the court as possible and perhaps they may decide the ticket fee just isn’t worth the hassle. Good to hear this from a former cop who has more first hand experience than just opinions. For everyone else out there, never just accept a ticket. You would be surprised how many minor traffic violations you can get tossed out just by showing up. They want to fine you, make them work for it.