Let me put it this way Finn: Of your last 1000 posts on SDMB, how many have been about Israel either directly or tangentially? More to the point, how many have been in defense of Israel? (I invite readers of the thread to take a look.)
You seem a little monomaniacal.
Oh ho! He’s got you there!
Sure, Spoke tries to deflect any and all criticism of Jimmy Carter’s habit of lying in order to support Carter’s agenda of demonizing one side in the conflict and absolving the other. But in one recent thread, one person did indeed call Carter an anti-Semite. According to the Rules Of Debates, spoke now gets out of his obligation to prove his claims that people are unfairly criticizing Carter.
Like such:
Yet again, get a spine, and defend your claims. You keep saying that I’m “smearing” Carter, it should be simple, easy, and quick to show how Carter isn’t really lying constantly, how his lies don’t all favor one side and demonize the other, and how that doesn’t evince bigotry. Instead all you can do is try to change the subject to talk about how he builds houses. As if no philanthropist has ever had any hint of bigotry, at all. Nopers. Surely Henry Ford didn’t both start The Ford Foundation and promote The Protocols of the Elder of Zion as a factual narrative. Your partisan whoring for Carter is just as convincing as someone defending Ford since “he started the Ford Foundation, and I’m not going to bother addressing, let alone refuting all those tedious ‘facts’ you’re using!”
But you want us to believe, you really can refute them. Because I’m so obviously wrong. And so egregiously wrong. And my claims are not only wrong, but a “smear”. And you could have proven all this, easily, by now.
That is, if you weren’t full of shit.
Don’t get me wrong, the “I’m right and you’re wrong but I can’t be bothered to prove that, even though you’ve given your evidence.” tactic is, I’m sure, really persuasive. Come on bucko, you’d like to maintain you’re correct. and despite your cowardly dodge, you are indeed continuing to claim that I’m not just incorrect, but “smearing” Carter. Stop with your silly innuendo, get a bit of courage, and try to show how I’m actually wrong.
Unless, of course, you can’t. And you know you can’t. And you’re just a mindless partisan shill defending Carter. Which is why you not only refuse to debate Carter’s lies and their use with me, but with Captain Amazing as well.
In other words, your partisan whoring all seems disingenuous and pathetic.
Or go back to talking about how we’ve got to keep a close eye on those shifty Jews, ready to betray America at any moment. Speaking of your paranoid conspiracy fantasies:
Generally, you little conspiracy mongering nut, *it’s best not to deny something and then confirm it in the very next sentence. * Like I said, you’re fine with Jews as long as they have the “right” politics, but if they don’t, you get out your Conspiracy Theory about those dastardly Traitor Jews. And you confirmed it.
Speaking of which, are you going to retract your lie that I never criticize Israel?
Or perhaps your lie that I’m blindly supportive, which would require you to rebut my logic and refute my factual claims in order to show that they were based on untruths and fallacy, rather than fact and logic?
(and we both know that you’re a gutless coward and a partisan whore, and you avoid discussions of facts because you know you’ve already lost)?
Just wondering if you’re going to apologize for lying or not.
I don’t have high hopes, but figured I’d give you the chance again.
Edit: I see that you really are a committed and honorless liar given to dodges and deception. Cool. In this very thread, where my very first post rebuts the lie that I always support Israel and which cites where I’ve done just that one the Dope, you maintain your lie and try to change the subject to show that I like posting on issues that have to do with the Middle East and that I tend to “defend” Israel. Naturally, as you’re dishonest, you ‘forget’ to mention that what I ‘defend’ against are factual inaccuracies and errors in logic, and that I keep trying to get idiots like you to stop shitting up GD threads with your ignorance and your dishonesty, so for once we can have an honest discussion of Where We Go From Here.
Color me shocked. Shocked!
Understandable. Having to contribute substance is hard work. 
Speaking of those who shit up GD with dishonest debating, I’ll note that the whole Carter tangent was started by you, spoke, when you cited his book as an accurate resource. Even though it’s since been shown to be entirely based on factual errors that he either should have known about, or knew about and choose to include anyways, you have not retracted your support for it.
And when its lies were pointed out, you immediately tried to change the subject of its factual veracity with your “[del]Henry Ford[/del] Jimmy Carter cannot possibly be dishonest or have prejudices, he is a philanthropist!”
I’d wager you’ll even go on to cite it again at some point, knowing that it’s based on untruths. Because, of course, you don’t care. Prove me wrong, retract your use of Carter’s book publicly and clearly, due to the sheer amount of ‘honest mistakes’ in it. Of course you won’t. You’ll cite it yet again.
Now you’re maintaining your lie that I never criticize Israel (even though I cited and quoted me doing just that in my very first post to this thread). Ironically, you also serve as a living object lesson as to why I end up “defending” Israel so much. The lie that you’re using, that I never criticize Israel, is very popular among your little coterie. As are numerous other attitudes, fictions, and fallacies. What you’re really saying when you claim I always “defend” Israel is that when the exact same dozen or so schmucks make factual or logical errors, I point out the facts and their fallacies. Your whine boils down to “I keep using fiction and fallacy to slime Israel, and you keep debunking my claims! Obviously, you are displaying the type of blind allegiance that makes American Jews so dangerous!”
Obviously, arguing against your politics shows that A) any Jews who do so cannot be trusted and must carefully be watched for signs of betraying their home for the sake of a foreign power and B) that anybody who consistently debunks your criticisms of Israel is denying the God’s Honest Truth, and thus must obviously support Israel in all things, no matter what.
You’re a bit stupid and a bit nutty, aintcha?
You wouldn’t know.
No, the tangent started when, out of the blue, barbitu8 called Carter an antisemite.
So stop “LYING” Finn, you “BIGOT!!!”
(Oh wait…maybe you just made a mistake…)
Why did you do that? You couldn’t make your point without associating Jimmy Carter with a historical figure of known and vicious anti-Semitism? What, [del]Hitler[/del] was too “over the top” for you, so you moderated it a little bit? You won’t say that Jimmy Carter is an anti-Semite, but you’ll sure imply it as hard as you can.
Perhaps you should avoid criticizing the intellectual honesty of others until you have a bit yourself.
Can we all agree that whether Jimmy Carter is an anti-semite or not, his book is not an accurate source of information about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
It’s certainly fair and appropriate to point out such factual errors as there may be in the book, but that doesn’t render the book worthless.
(It is much less fair, by the way, to pore over the transcripts of countless extemporaneous interviews, pounce on factual errors and call them “LIES!”)
Can we all agree that Carter is not an anti-semite?
The book is full of factual errors, though. If the fact that the book is wrong about almost everything, and that his entire argument is based on false statements doesn’t render the book worthless, what would render the book worthless?
I don’t know if he’s an anti-semite or not. I’m willing to assume he’s not, but I don’t think there’s any doubt he’s anti-Israel.
You’ve spent the thread clowning, and pestering me while assholes posted lies and idiocy that you couldn’t be bothered to remark on, and recently you’ve been clowning your way out of even addressing Carter’s habit of lying to support an agenda of demonizing one side, and have in fact argued spoke’s position that Carter couldn’t have been deliberately lying since he was such a philanthropist… and now you’re going to pull this bullshit? Have you no shame or integrity? None at all?
Hey, genius, I offered up a well known philanthropist who was also a racist because spoke keeps claiming that such a thing is impossible. And because schmucks like you have gone on defending such claims rather than calling spoke on the carpet and taking him to task. I see even now you are being a little bitch, and can’t bring yourself to condemn spoke’s dishonesty, but you’ll get your panties in a wad because I refuted the notion that philanthropy is a guard against prejudice.
You are thoroughly intellectually dishonest, and it really is a disgusting character trait.
Just like when Sevastopol argued that all the Israelis past the Green Line should be murdered and you kept quiet until I pointed out the implications, now you ignore spoke’s idiocy about how philanthropy rules out prejudice until I rebut it. And then you, a veritable intellectual prostitute, pretend that I’m being intellectually dishonest or ‘hinting at’ accusations against Carter? You are, evidently, one of the people stupid enough to say, in this thread of all places, that when I have a problem with someone that I’m coy about it.
Spoke: yet again you are wrong, go figure. The tangent is about the veracity of Carter’s claims, why he is “honestly mistaken” quite so often, on subjects that we know he knows the facts on, at least once where he admitted that he knew what the facts were before going on to repeat the same “honest mistake”. In fact, you made it quite clear that you thought it the subject you were bringing up nothing to do with accusations of anti-Semitism on Carter’s part.
To say nothing of the fact that even your claim in that quote is a dodge designed to short-circuit discussion, because as soon as the factual veracity of the message was challenged you handwaved away all “honest errors” as quibbles, and as soon as the use of the message and its content was challenged, you tried to change the subject by asking what drove Carter to be a bigot (as if anybody would know) and how Henry Ford could ever possibly be accused of prejudice.
Prove me wrong, show that you aren’t full of shit and that you brought up Carter’s book in an honest attempt to discuss the truth of the “message” and the use that the “message” was being put to. I’ve offered you many, many chances to defend his work as accurate and/or not containing a massive number of ‘honest mistakes’ that all, invariably, demonize one side and absolve the other.
Or just admit you were pretty much trolling GD and you never had any intention to discuss the book’s factual claims, and let’s leave it at that.
For fuck’s sake. When all the book’s premises are based on “honest mistakes”, you still want to pretend that the book has worth as a non-fiction source? To say nothing of the fact that you are still ignoring the obvious. If there are so many “honest mistakes”, all of which Carter either did or should have known were false, how did they get in the book in the first place? What does it say about the book if it is entirely based around using agenda-driven fictions to support the demonization of one faction and absolution of another? What possible worth does it have other than an example of the perils of letting bigotry replace scholarship?
And again, just in case you’re playing stupid, being obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices =/= racism, so drop it already. Bigotry and racism are two different words because, guess this, they’re two different concepts.
What’s it going to take to get some honesty out of you?
Do you believe that Carter is senile then? Perhaps that he simply doesn’t know the facts? What’s your explanation as to how Carter can mange to be ‘honestly wrong’ quite so often, in the same direction all the time, about issues he should know better about? One honest mistake, okay. Five, ten, dozens? All demonizing Israel and absolving the Palestinians? This to you is just a lucky coincidence?
You expect anybody here (in the midst of your paranoid conspiracy fears of Traitor Jews) to believe that you’d offer the same benefit of the doubt to someone who was “honestly mistaken” quite to often in the service of supporting Israel? Hell, you’ve lowered yourself to lying about me because I’ve argued against falsehoods about Israel Israel with facts, are we really to expect that you’d be fine with someone countering criticism of Israel with a slew of ‘honest mistakes’ that all served to absolve Israel and demonize the Palestinian factions?
Nobody has said he is other than one noob poster in GD. You’re the one who keeps trying to get someone to accuse him of racism. Now, if you’d like to be honest, address his factual errors (in or out of the book, same difference), explain why they all, without fail, serve to distort the truth in order to demonize one faction and absolve the other, and how that does not show Carter being obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices which are invariably anti-Israel.
Thanks in advance for your change of heart and new-found integrity.
Pick a history book: Undaunted Courage, for example. I am quite confident you could comb through that book (or any history book) and find a couple dozen factual errors. Does that mean you can’t learn anything about the Lewis and Clark Expedition by reading Undaunted Courage?
Yet again, all of Carter’s “honest mistakes” serve to demonize one side and absolve the other. All of them. All of his easily verifiable mistakes that he could and should have caught go to prop up one narrative that runs counter to the facts. All of his “mistakes” are used to construct the book’s central premise, and without them, the book has no argument because all the facts its major premises are supposedly based on are shown to be fictional.
Can you apply even the basest intellectual honesty to the question? Do you expect us to believe that you’d handwave away criticism of a book that tried to claim that Israel was totally blameless and the Palestinians were totally to blame for everything, and used “honest errors” to make all of its major claims? You’d be just fine with that, and in fact you’d cite it as something that people should read to find out about the true causes of the conflict? Are you so full of shit that your eyes are brown?
Why’s it so hard for you to simply retract your support of a work of ‘scholarship’ that is at best sloppy, shoddy and unreliable on key factual points, and at worst deliberately deceptive in service of a narrative that seeks to demonize one side and absolve the other? This is not exactly rocket science. There’s a reason that the words "valid’ and “sound” are used to apply to logic, and you can, I’m sure, figure out what an argument would be if it’s based on claims that aren’t true.
I am happy to let Carter himself respond to the criticisms of the book, as he stepped forward to do at Brandeis. (The video includes Dershowitz’s response)
You probably could find factual errors in Undaunted Courage, but you still could learn a lot about the Lewis and Clark Expedition by reading it. But Palestine: Peace not Apartheid isn’t like Undaunted Courage; it’s more like James Loewen’s Lies My Teachers Told Me, in that they’re both trying to push a certain point of view, and will manipulate and misstate facts, and sometimes outright make up facts to prove their point.
There’s a saying, attributed to Mark Twain, as well as to some other people, that “It’s not the things you don’t know that get you. It’s the things you know that just ain’t so.”. I’m concerned that by reading that book, people will get to know a lot of things that just ain’t so.
I would have been happier at Brandeis if Carter had actually agreed to debate with Dershowitz.
Why dignify a jackass who as much as accuses you of antisemitism?
Carter isn’t in this thread. You are.
Nor are you ignorant of the charges of inaccuracy in the book or the use to which they were put.
Time to man up and defend the book you’ve put forward.
And speaking of which, you’ve inadvertently demonstrated another one of Carter’s fictions. He claimed that he wrote the book to spark debate, but then continually turned down attempts to debate him and cast them as attempts to silence him. And it’s nice to see that you think that people who dishonestly slime your character aren’t worth a response. You going to apologize for lying about me never criticizing Israel, by the way?
Why write a book because you want to “start a discussion” on a topic, and then refuse to discuss it with people who disagree with you? Dershowitz hasn’t called Carter an anti-Semite. He’s said that Carter has become an “anti-Israel bigot”, but Carter has become an anti-Israel bigot.
Captain Amazing = FinnAgain?