I see what you did there.
RedFury, your link doesn’t work.
Takes a bit to load, but it does for me, spoke.
Try again: Israel’s global standing continues downward spiral, but many don’t grasp why
And here’s a direct pdf link to the BBCNews poll.
I have a tiny little violin for you.
He’s being baited for his behaviour, and hardly is a martyr (as you pass in silence on his distortions of others arguments).
Not that I find being more or less side-by-side with a contemptible git like Ivan in any way pleasant (as he actually does merit FinnAgain’s standard method of argument).
His broad brush smearing is itself contemptible.
No, he’s making factual points that others are unable or unwilling to rebut, and providing evidence to show that they made false statements.
Because his critics are unable or unwilling to rebut his facts, they’re engaging in ad homenim attacks of him, calling him an Israeli apologist, criticizing him for making long posts, and claiming he has Aspergers Syndrome.
You did notice that this is a Pit thread?
As for making “factual” arguments, screaming “RACIST!” at every opponent is in no way a “factual point.”
Yep, an unwarranted pit thread.
He doesn’t do that, though. He provides citations proving the falsehood of claims made. He only calls people racists when they make racist statements.
Here’s a cite for you.
Oh, did I say “cite”? I meant “sight”.
Just to be clear:
So then you agree with Finn’s characterization of elucidator and me as racists? Step right up. Don’t be coy.
I don’t know if you’re a racist or not. But some of your statements that the loyalty of American Jews who support Israel is suspect, and that Pearle and Wolfowitz, for instance, because they were Jews and had in the past done consulting for Likud, were manipulating US foreign policy when they were in the US government to serve Israeli interests make me feel very uncomfortable.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing that I support Israel or that it makes me any less a patriot, and I’m a little offended that you feel that way about me, as it appears you do.
So, it’s completely out of order to suggest an American Jew might have divided loyalties - ie. seemingly a fair query - but it’s okay to say someone is an evil racist for coming out with such an idea? Or for cracking a stereotypical joke, or implying that trouble seems to have followed the jewish “race” throughout its history, or suggesting that their security forces have no qualms about subverting international laws to further their interests?
Not to slight the BBC, but another survey reports rather different results.
Latest Zogby Poll on U.S. citizens attitudes towards some key players in the Middle East:
*"In 2009 71% of Americans had a favorable view of Israelis with only 21% rating them unfavorably. In 2010 the favorable/unfavorable ratings have shifted to 65%–29%. This is largely due to a significant drop among Democrats who now hold a 42% favorable, 49% unfavorable view of Israelis. The Israeli Prime Minister’s rating among Democrats is an even worse 20% to 63%.
During this same period, however, the US public’s attitudes toward the Palestinians and their President, Mahmoud Abbas, have also declined. In 2009 Palestinians were viewed favorably by 25% of the public and unfavorably by 66%. Today the favorable/unfavorable ratio is 21% to 73%. Abbas’ ratings during the past year have also declined to where he is now seen favorably by only 14% of the US public."*.
It’s a classic anti-Semitic slur. See the link I provided earlier to Charles Lindbergh’s notorious Des Moines speech, where in addition to other bigoted observations he suggested that in opposing Hitler, American Jews were pursuing an agenda contrary to America’s interests.
It’s historically been a typical part of the repertoire of anti-Semitic bigots.
People who employ these sorts of smears to denounce those who do not share their vitriolically one-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, should not feign shock if others view them as bigots, and should have enough common sense (and a grasp of irony) not to wail about how they are innocent victims of smears.
It is my considered opinion that American policy favors Israel more than it should. I consider my opinion reasonable and well supported. Further, I believe that an unreasoning support of Israeli policies do her more harm than good, as it encourages intransigence and postpones the day when peace may prevail.
To publicly voice the conclusion that this makes me an anti-Jewish bigot is the action of a poisonous little pissant whose reason is overwhelmed by fanaticism. When pressed to actual positions, Finn’s are not as irrational as he is, there is ground for fair negotiation, which is all a reasonable man may expect in a situation so fraught with animosity and hatred.
He is a man who advises you not to plant your morning glories too early in the spring, as they may suffer from a late frost. He presses this point by seizing you by the lapels and shrieking foam-flecked slander into your face.
Please show me where I expressed concern about Pearle and Wolfowitz being Jews. That’s just Finn’s gloss on what I said. (The Big Lie works, I guess.) I don’t give a damn if they’re Jews. My objection to their activities is that they were writing policy papers for Israel and then going to work for the US government in pursuit of the very policy they mentioned as a priority for Israel (removal of Saddam Hussein). Do you honestly not see the potential conflict of interest there? Really?
The only reason I mentioned ethnicity at all was to say that I understand the connection a Jew might feel to Israel, and the emotional importance of having Israel there as a strong state. Then I specifically said that not all Jews feel the same toward Israel. Which part of that makes me racist?
I don’t think it’s a bad thing for you to support Israel either. (Though I certainly don’t agree with the policies of Israel’s current government.) Nor do I think it makes you less of a “patriot” however that word may be defined. I don’t think it means you love the US any less, if that’s what you mean.
The problem comes when support of Israel is so ardent (as in Finn’s case, I think) that it might cause one to conflate the interests of Israel with those of the US.
To give a concrete example, it concerns me when I see AIPAC beating the drums against Iran now in just the same way they beat the drums against Iraq in the lead-up to the Iraq war. Without getting into a detailed policy discussion, I will simply say that US interests with regard to Iran and Israel’s interests with regard to Iran are not of a piece. Yet someone who ardently supports Israel might tend to see them as such. And they might do so without being “TRAITOR JEWS!!!” as Finn likes to put it. It could happen quite innocently. I think this is not an unreasonable concern, and I think it is not anti-semitic. If you insist on seeing it as such well, have at it I guess. But to do so, you have to convince yourself that “AIPAC” is interchangeable with “American Jews.” I don’t see it that way.
But if you do think I am a racist, be forthright enough to say so yourself, rather than just cheering for Finn every time he says it. Step out from behind the stalking horse.
(By the way, see how civil the discussion can be when Finn stays quiet? His invective really is not helpful to the conversation.)
I made my position very clear in this post upthread. As I wrote at the time, I didn’t think it needed to be said, but just to be on the safe side of Frothy’s vapid accusations, I did. Obviously, I was wrong.
Funny that, for I have purposefully used many cites and examples of Israeli misbehavior written by…wait for it! None other than Jews themselves! Of course, that’s why I’ve also added, semi-playfully, for there appear to be some mini-Frothys here as well, that they were of the “self-hating” kind.
Point being of course, that anyone who doesn’t toe the line when it comes to Israel’s policies, is well…a RACIST. Fuck that; if anything I find that Frothy’s comments on/about the Palestinians are more often than not, borderline racist if not openly so.
Well that was easy. Guess we can all play that game.
:rolleyes:
James Carville worked for the Israeli Labour Party, but nobody calls him an Israeli agent. Look, I’ve heard the argument you’re making 100 times before, and it’s an anti-Semitic argument. It’s Wolfowitz as evil Zionist spy. And you might not give a damn if they’re Jews, but pretty much everyone else who makes the argument seems to.
You know, just repeatedly saying it’s anti-Semitic doesn’t make it so.
And nor is my concern “spying” as such. My concern is that Wolfowitz and Pearle might not be capable of seeing the difference between US interests and Israeli interests. That does not require any nefarious intent.
*If anybody has taken Red to task, by the way, for his tactic of naming anybody with a name that sounded Jewish to him and accusing them of Jewish Dual Loyalty, please link that post. Otherwise your protestations of being outraged about accusations of racism are not only blatantly self-serving, it’s pretty clear that you don’t give a shit about racism and are happy to accept racists into your camp as long as they’re selling your narrative.
*
Anyways:
1, The facts were already pointed out but you are repeating your lies (I guess you’re hoping the Big Lie works, eh?). Perle and Wolfowitz both worked for the US government before they wrote a word for the PNAC.
2. Likewise, you are lying when you describe the PNAC’s agenda, which in fact was not simply “the removal of Sadaam” but that Israel should distance itself from US support, not use its economic aid or military support and work only with regional powers to remove Sadaam. That you are continually ‘conveniently forgetting’ those essential bits and claiming that agenda is exactly what we did in Iraq shows that you are hoping that if you repeat your lie often enough, it will stick.
3. Likewise, it is a lie that your racist conspiracy theory was only about Wolfowitz and Perle (baseless and dishonest as your accusations were.) In point of fact, you were quite clear that Perle and Wolfiwitz were only a small sampling of the folks you were dishonestly smearing as Traitor Jews due to their “close personal relationship” with Israel. Which, in the case of Wolfowitz, meant having political opinions you disagreed with and living there for a year, at age 14 when his father got an academic job, and for this you suggested he might be an Israeli agent and we had to check him and any other Je, oops, I mean “people with close personal relationships with Israel”.
(racism yours, underlining mine)
The blind idiot-panic of your racist conspiracy mongering is made even more clear by the fact that you ‘just so happen’ to name a couple of Jews as traitors who evilly influenced US foreign policy, while deliberately ignoring that both Cheny and Rumsfeld were members of the PNAC. But surely it must have been the work of Israeli agents (who just so happen to be Jews, what luck!).
And while I’m at it, that’s not so much a “concrete example” as it is a “blatant untruth”.
Currently AIPAC backs sanctions and divestment against Iran.
Likewise, your paranoid conspiracy fantasy about AIPAC being a den of Israeli agents in the US makes no sense as Israel advised against the US going to war with Iraq and at the time advised the US that Iran was a bigger threat… and yet AIPAC has come out against war with Iran and for sanctions.
Your narrative is built on fiction and racist paranoia.
You know full well that it’s the racist things you said, not your stance on negotiations. Who do you think you’re fooling with such silly little lies, Lucy? Playing dumb may be how you operate, but it’s not terribly convincing. To remind you the bit of racism you engaged in was when you alleged that it was perfectly valid to “contemplate [dual loyalty among Jews] on religious or ethnic grounds”.
Not on ‘personal, ideological and political’ grounds, not on ‘the character of the man or the woman involved’, but on “religious or ethnic grounds”. It’s rather obvious that once you allege that an ethnicity is to be suspected of possible treachery due to their ethnicity, that your claims of being wrongly accused of making discriminatory statements about that ethnic group are somewhat hollow.
But, while claiming your innocence, to have to do so with lies? Don’t you realize what it says about you that you need to use lies to try to shield yourself from the reality of your racist remarks? Your dodge here is yet another reason why nobody should believe that when you ‘just so happen’ to make racist accusations, that you’re honestly confused as to why anybody might think that someone saying racist things is a racist. You’re no more honestly confused about why saying Jews might be traitors due to their ethnicity is a racist thing to say than you are confused that it wasn’t the racist stuff you were saying, but what negotiating posture you support the US in taking.
Give up the games.
Actually, that was where you made your dodge clear. Your position was made clear when you got drunk enough to let your racism hang out and accused anybody in the US government who happened to have a name that sounded Jewish to you… of Jewish treachery. In fact, it was clear that you were voicing a racist conspiracy theory, because as soon as it was pointed out to you that Tenet wasn’t Jewish, you withdrew him from the list rather than defending his inclusion, showing that your interest wasn’t about finding people who you claimed to be traitors, but accusing Jews of treachery.
Nor could you explain how Rahm Emanuel ended up on your list, other than the fact that he was a Jew in government.
When pressed on what reason you had for slandering Rahm Emanuel, exactly, other than you getting into a racist fugue-state and calling any Jew in politics whose name you could remember, you did not answer how such an ‘innocent mistake’ was made, but merely withdrew his name for your list of Traitor Jews and again, stupidly, tried to change the subject.
When pressed again on why you’d accused Rahm Emanuel of being a Traitor Jew (other than the obvious, that you were accusing everybody whose name sounded Jewish to you of being a traitor). You lied and claimed that you’d answered how you made such a ‘mistake’. (You have, to date, yet to come up with a reason for why you accused Rahm Emanuel of being a Traitor Jew other than the fact that he was a Jew in politics whose name you remembered).
I then pointed out that your racist conspiracy mongering went far beyond Emanuel and Tenet, and challenged you to substantiate your other racist slanders. Not only could you not identify why you were slandering random Jewish people, you lied again and said you’d explained why you’d slandered Emanuel and again tried to change the subject.
After you’d ignored having to defend your racist slander, I again pressed you to identify what, other than racism, had caused you to allege that Tenet, Emanuel, or the others were Traitor Jews. Again you lied, claiming that it had been “asked, answered, and retracted”. Of course, you never did identify what your throught process was that caused you to slander anybody with a Jewish name that you could remember, nor did you somehow “retract” whatever thought process you’d had at the time that caused you to slander them. A thought process you still refuse to identity. Nor could you even back up your slander, and made it clear that you were simply looking at anybody with a Jewish name and slandering them first and then looking for proof afterward, as you gave not one iota of proof but demanded that we go hunting and “determine whether any of them show signs of dual-loyalty.”
In point of fact, you went as far as to lie and claim that you wanted to discuss any of the other Jews who you’d slandered as Traitor Jews. I pointed out that I’d already asked you to back up your accusations, and you’d been unable to, and if you actually wanted to discuss your accusations rather than slander random Jews, you could any time as you’d been specifically asked to. You then, shocking, tried to change the subject. Then you accused roughly 3/4 of the US Senate and hundreds of Representatives of being Israeli agents, because they didn’t agree with your politics.
Of course, at the time I pointed out how you were lying when you claimed you wanted to talk about the substance of your accusations and also pointed out, again, why you were lying when you claimed it was somehow racist to point to the very real problems in Palestinian society having to do with anti-semitism and genocidal incitement. Your response was to… change the subject.
Speaking of which:
You are a liar and you can not find any borderline racist comments, let alone outright racist comments. You’ve made them up. Just like you’ve ignored the actual reality, that incitement to racism and genocide are systemic in Palestinian society and constitute a very real problem. Facts that have all been cites and which, gee whiz, you’ve ignored.
And of course, that fact alone gives such cites enormous added credibility.
Sort of like when Clarence Thomas expresses opinions about race and civil rights. Black people who disagree just resent him for stating the truth, don’t you know.
Thank you for the blinding clarity of that observation!
If I may be permitted another simile, it’s like when those nasty liberals say that all Tea Partiers are RACIST. It doesn’t matter what evidence they have of racism among Tea Partiers, they’re just trying to smear anyone who doesn’t like OBAMA!!
:dubious: