When Torre was hired back in '96 he had established a mediocre track record as the manager of the Cards, Mets and Braves. He only became a brilliant manager after taking over the Yankees and all their great talent. Talent wins, not the manager. How smart do you have to be to write Jeter’s name on the lineup card and bring in Mariano Riveria as the closer?
What I’m saying is that Torre’s skills are not unique. Any number of good baseball men, as Torre certainly is, could’ve been as successful as Torre’s been with the Yankees.
Well in Torre’s defense, “The Boss” fired 20 managers before Torre in only 23 years and 10 GMs. Only Torre seems to have the unique talent for putting up with George, consoling George and the NY press which appears to run #2 behind only Boston for toughest press. It probably helps that Joe is a New Yorker, but he is exceptional in this regard.
Torre’s field management is pretty much average and only average. It was above average when he had Zim’s 50 years of baseball experience to bounce things off of. Neither was a great manager, but together they made one very good manager. Keeping in mind that the Gerbil was pretty much an average manager with strengths and weaknesses also.
This has been said of pretty much every manager who was ever successful in the major leagues. There is no way to handle a pitching staff that will not be “suspect.” How managers handle pitching staffs can be broken into three general categories of quality:
“Suspect”
“Bad”
“Fucking Stupid”
It makes not one bit of difference how a pitching staff is handled; on some nights a guy is going to get pasted, and the manager will be blamed for it. Some managers are legitimately really bad at this, but even the ones who do a very good job will get blamed when things go wrong, and they’re the ones who are “suspect.” Torre’s in that group.
If Torre is not resigned, 5,000,000 Yankee fans will be wishing on August 1, 2008 that he was, although I am sure they won’t admit it. Everyone’s going to be VERY surprised at how much getting rid of Torre isn’t going to help. Oh yes indeedy.
If the Yanks fail to get Pettitte, Posada and Rivera to return and Torre being fired is cited as the reason, than yes, many fans will regret Torre being gone and most will admit to it.
A-Rod’s return will have little to do with Torre, indeed, if Torre left last year and Lou Pinella had come in, the chances of resigning Alex would have went up a small bit. In the end A-Rod’s signing is about Boris and the cash.
This might not be the ideal time for Torre to leave, George left a foul taste in everyone’s mouth with his old school George pronouncement before game 3. However, Torre could have and should have been fired several times before this post season. How many managers would ever have survived 2004?
I agree with your overall point. Very few managers are brilliant enough or dumb enough to help or hurt their teams THAT much. As I said, Torre is neither a great nor a horrible manager, and most of the Yankees’ failures in recent years had more to do with Brian Cashman than Torre. It wasn’t Joe who overpaid for Carl Pavano! And if Cashman had picked up Johs Beckett and Curt Schilling, rather than the Red Sox, Torre might still be a “genius.”
Again, I’m fine with keeping Torre, who hasn’t done anything unforgivably wrong. On the other hand, losing him is not like losing Bill Belichick-if the team goes after a demonstrably better motivator or tactician, I’m fine with that, too. Torre is far from irreplaceable.
But that’s the key thing- who’s demonstrably better? Not Mattingly, certainly.
Change is fine. But change for the hell of it? What’s the point?
You can only say that by considering the team in isolation from its owner. Torre has been absolutely unique in the Steinbrenner era by being able to deal with George for more than a few years. His great skill has been in managing the owner, not so much the team. And that’s an absolutely fundamental part of managing the Yankees. Unless you can find someone who can BOTH manage the team as well as Torre, PLUS put up with Steinbrenner and the NY press, they won’t last.
George III is 77. He’s not going to be problem for much longer. Torre is 67 and he too is getting too old for this. Did you see him hobble out to the mound to change pitchers in the ALDS? Stick with Torre if you want but he isn’t a long term solution anymore.