Fire Joe Torre? Okay, But...

Cafe Society
1

As a Yankees fan (not the most ardent fan any more, but I still care enough to watch come post-season)…

I don’t have a strong opinion as to whether Joe Torre should be retained as manager. I can honestly see arguments both ways.

PRO TORRE:

He keeps a talented team on an even keel, which is important in seasons like 2007, where the team got off to a rocky start. The players like him and they’re comfortable with him. And the team makes the playoffs every year, so how bad could he be?

ANTI TORRE:

He’s a mediocre strategist, at best, and his decision making leaves a lot of people scratching their heads. And while he does a good job keeping the team relaxed, he doesn’t seem to have any real motivational skills.

So, I’m okay with keeping him OR releasing him. He’s neither a great manager nor a horrible one. It’s fine by me if the front office decides, “We’re not a terrible team, and we’ll be just fine if we reload on pitching,” and keeps Torre. It’s ALSO fine by me if they decide, “Torre’s been a good guy, but it’s time to go in another direction.” Great, let him go and bring in a proven tactical genius or a proven motivator.

But… all indications are that Torre’s replacement would be Don Mattingly. And while I loved Don as a player, it’s hard to see how he’d represent an improvement for the Yankees!

Is he a better tactician than Torre? Nobody knows. Is he a fiery guy who’ll motivate underachievers? No, not really.

So, why hire him? Because they want to change things… but just a teeny weeny bit??? Because they want to shake things up, but not TOO much???

My feeling is, they should either keep Torre or make a REAL change. A switch to Don Mattingly doesn’t accomplish anything useful.

2

The Yankee’s strengths, and their weaknesses, all rest on one man… Steinbrener. Torre is a very good manager, but he works for a mercurial boss.

I’m a Braves fan and we had Bobby Cox for ages. Bobby Cox is good. But I remember when Ted Turner used to own the team and use it as his little play toy. We were bad. It was only in the early 90’s when the Ted decided to let the guys who knew baseball run the baseball team that we got good. Hell of a run.

Y’all need to keep Torre. If you lose him, you’re not going to even make the playoffs next year. Torre is a good manager, and he may be the only one in baseball that is able to work under the Tsar of the Pinstripes and still function.

Bird in hand, man. Bird in hand

3

How would you change his “strategy”? In baseball, the strategy is pretty simple: hit the ball where they can’t catch it and run fast; pitch strikes they can’t hit, and occasionally try to pick off runners. What “sly” thing can a manager do that would “outwit” opponents?

4

His handling of pitchers is often suspect… and it’s NOT smart to bat your best hitter 8th to try to prove some kind of point.

5

One con against Torre is his salary- surely they can find someone a lot cheaper who can get a team with all that talent to the first round of the playoffs, which is all they’ve done the past three years.

6

Where to position players in the field. Which matchups to put in the lineup depending on the opposing pitchers. When to call for a bunt, a steal, a hit and run, a pitchout, or intentional walk. When to pull a pitcher. Which pitcher to call in from the bullpen. Order of the lineup. Putting in a pinch hitter or a runner. When to bring in your closer. Starting pitchers who aren’t on full rest.

There are plenty more. There’s lots a manager can do to change what happens.

7

I thought he could have done a better job trying to manufacture runs in the division series. In game one it took him far too long to figure out that Wang’s unsinking sinker wasn’t going to do the job. I like him but face it with the talent he has had he hasn’t brought home the trophies you should expect. I would like to see Girardi get the call. Mattingly needs to manage in the minors first to prove himself.

8

As a Red Sox fan, I’d love to see them get rid of Torre, because I’m pretty sure they’ll be worse off without him. Mattlingly is unproven, and the biggest risk is that he’s such an insider with the Yankees it’s hard to imagine that promoting him will make any positive difference. I can think of two good reasons to drop Torre for Mattingly, and neither gets them closer to winning in the playoffs: 1) Mattingly will be a lot cheaper 2) Mattingly will easier for Steinbrenner to dominate.

9

You have two managers. One manages a team which threw away a huge lead, fell apart at the end of the season and missed the playoffs. It seems like a big part of their collapse was lack of discipline and focus. The other team was in a huge hole, fought back after the Allstar break and clawed it’s way to the playoffs.

For some reason Randolph’s job is safe and Torre’s is not. He shouldn’t be let go because his team didn’t hit for three games. On top of that I think the Yankees will have a tougher time resigning Rivera, Posada, Petitte and ARod without Torre. Basically I don’t see them even making the wildcard next year without him. Then does Mattingly get fired then?

Nitpick on the OP. Torre can’t get fired. His contract is up. He will either be resigned or not.

10

Mattingly will never manage in the minors. He is Donnie Baseball. His first job as a manager will be as the Yankee manager. I guarantee it. I just hope it will be in a few more years.

11

And on a related note, I have on my desk a bobblehead of Don Mattingly in a Nashville Sounds (AAA) uniform, where he played in the early 80’s. Maybe if he becomes the manager of the NYY it’s eBay value will go up? Go Donny!

12

You make good points. However, do you really think A-Rod is a huge Torre fan? I have seen no proof of that.

I think it is probably past the time for Torre to go. However, I do not think Mattingly is ready. I like the idea of giving the job to Joe Girardi and keeping Don on as bench coach another two years.

Torre is a very good in season manager but his faults are magnified in the post season. He relies very heavy on the vets. He makes many WTF in game decisions and does a poor job setting the rotation.

A large part of his genius in the World Series run was Ramiro Mendoza, Stanton, Nelson and Rivera. This supported by players like Jeter, Bernie and O’Neill will make an average manager a genius.

Torre’s strong suit is keeping veterans happy and motivated. Handling the press and handling “The Boss”.

Jim

13

They lost Petitte once even with Torre. Let’s face it, Rivera and Posada have very few, if any, good years left. Rivera in particular is not what he used to be. And A-Rod, even when he’s playing well, is still a weiner.

14

I was going to mention how I didn’t know how big a factor it would be for A-Rod in particular and how it probably wouldn’t be as big a factor for him as the others, then I got distracted by something shiney.

Posada hit .320 the whole year, had very few days off and never slumped. How about we wait to bury him until he starts to actually lose it. I know he is a catcher and he won’t last forever but there certainly isn’t anyone out there who can replace him. Same for Rivera. They both may only have three good years left but the Yanks can’t afford to lose them for those three years. Petitte is needed to be the veteran anchor for a rotation filled with kids (Clemens is done and Mussina should be). A-Rod is the best player in baseball. Weiner or not, I’d rather have him on my team than playing against me. For all four I am not saying that Torre will be the determining factor as to if they will stay or not. The main factor will probably be money. I’m sure it will be a factor. Rivera has said so in front of reporters.

Why do you think that? Girardi is what, ten years younger than Mattingly? (ETA looks like he is about 3 years younger but the rest stands) Mattingly has more years in baseball, at least as much knowledge and experience. Girardi managed for a year. You think he has a lot to teach Mattingly? I like Giradi and would like to see him manage again but I don’t think George would want him since he has a reputation for butting heads with ownership.

15

Mattingly does not appear to be ready to manage. I actually thought back in early May the Yanks missed a perfect opportunity. If Torre was canned and the promoted Don, he could do no wrong. The team was terrible at that point and only likely to get better as some of the vets started hitting and the pitching returned from the DL. Don might have looked as good as Bob Lemon once did.

I think Joe G. did a great job managing in his one year. He handles pitchers and in game decisions well. On the conspiratorial side: The fact he is hot headed means he would provide the excuse to fire him in 2-3 years and promote Mattingly when he had more experience under his belt. It also means that Don won’t have to be the man that replaces St. Joe. That is going to be a hard sell for many millions of fans from what I can see.

I also think players like Pettitte, Rivera and Jorge would stick around for Joe G or Donnie Baseball. People are forgetting Andy can opt out also. I know Jorge and Joe G were friends.

Jim

16

My fear with Girardi is that he will work Kennedy, Hughes and Chamberlain till their arms drop off. It appears to be what he did in Florida, with their young pitchers.
And he couldn’t get along with Jeff Loria, so I can only imagine what would happen with Steinbrenner…
I also don’t think Mattingly is ready. As I said in another thread, there isn’t a clear cut candidate out there that is as good as Torre has proven himself to be (unless Bobby Valentine is available, of course).

17

What about LaRussa?

18

There were a few times early this season where I thought the Yankees needed some fire and brimstone from their manager. Torre’s even keel works well, but sometimes you need the emotion, even if it is fake like in Lou Pinella’s commercial for bottled water. Kick some dirt, throw a base, let the team (and the fans) know you are fed up. Personally, I think it is more effective if it only rarely occurs.

19

Knowing Steinbrenner, whichever of Mattingly, Girardi, or LaRussa he hires, he has to be doing so with an eye toward firing them sooner or later. He ain’t gettin’ any younger and I’m sure he wants another Series win before he dies, which has to make him antsy. Whoever replaces Torre (presuming Torre is in fact out) will be on a very short leash.

Mattingly will, as noted, be much easier for Steinbrenner to control than the other two. In addition, if he doesn’t work out, and Steinbrenner fires him after a season, where’s he gonna go? What other team will give him a shot at the manager’s seat?

With Girardi and LaRussa, by contrast, they won’t have much trouble lining up another gig (even given Girardi’s short-fuse reputation and limited experience, he’s still a desirable candidate, much discussed for available managerial vacancies). That means that if Steinbrenner hires and then dumps one of them, there’s a pretty good chance they’ll be managing another team the next season (or the one after that), with the possibility of doing well, which will make Steinbrenner look like an ass. One benefit of having kept Torre around as long as he did is that Torre’s gotten used to the Really Big Show and will probably retire or go into broadcasting rather than lowering himself to accept a managerial position with a second- or third-tier team.

It’ll be Mattingly, for all the wrong reasons for the team, but all the right reasons for Steinbrenner.

20

He has almost already been dismissed. It seems to be the general consensus of the “Yankee Brain Trust” and local and national media that LaRussa could not survive the NY market as he has problems with the press in St Louis. I don’t know if this is a fair assessment, but it sure is out there that way this week. Everyone from Gammons to Mike & the Mad Dog locally are agreed on this. The hints from Cashman and others is that if Torre is going, it will be Donnie or Girardi.

I agree, in fact, last year, I was sad that Cashman saved Torre. I fully expect Pinella to be our manager again. I really like Gerardi for that reason, smart baseball man, fiery temperament and we’ll see if he survives the Boss & the Media.

Cervaise: I fear you are correct.

Jim