His4ever
Yes! 
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. — 1 John 4:8
Is that one not amenable to Love?
And how many other people will you drive away during your “conviction” of someone who’s not doing anything wrong because of the hatred towards anyone who’s not already Christian that “conviction” involves?
Signing up to a religion because you’re afraid of Hell is a pathetic, childish and moronic reason to join a faith. Anyone who is Christian because they’re afraid of going to Hell, is not a real Christian. Christianity is not about the afterlife, it has never been about avoiding Hell. When fundamentalists pervert the religion to make it so, they do every real Christian a disservice.
Being a hateful, judgemental twit is a gift from God? What sort of monstrous demon do you worship?
It is not your job to tell people they are sinning. If God wants someone to know they’re sinning, he will tell them himself.
Then you know nothing worth knowing about God. Why make a habit of sharing your ignorance?
<Monty returns for second visit to the “Buck a Turn” wall.>
In response to Polycarp’s question of a couple pages back, I’d like to quote an acquaintance of mine. (I’ve been away for the holidays and all that good stuff, hence the belated response.)
I believe that those things which bring pain and harm and destroy the lives of people are wrong, therefore they cannot be God. Suffering cannot be God. Hatred cannot be God. The people who speak of a God whose acts are acts of suffering and destruction, who hate things which do no harm and cause no pain, those are people who I cannot believe are speaking truly for any God that I can respect or even consider following. The people who speak of love, of joy, of beauty – they sound to me like they could actually be talking about God.
Lel, unlike some others who hold my basic concept here, I do see the value of conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit in the conversion of some people (think Paul). And I did deal with that earlier in this thread – with the example of people who are “bearing the burden of sin” (not in some theological sense that we all are, but as an overtly recognized sense of guilt) and attend revivals in response to that sense. I would also expect to hear this sort of message in a certain style of church, and if I were bearing that burden might go there to hear it. Perhaps “conviction of sin” witness is also effective in other contexts as well; I am personally offended by the black billboards with messages like “Don’t make me come down there! – God” but I wonder if they do in fact touch some people.
The point I’m trying to make is that in one-on-one evangelism IRL and still more so on message boards, the style characterized in “Make a friend; be a friend; tell your friend about Jesus” and in speaking primarily of God’s love and desire for a life-changing one-on-one relationship with each person is more effective both for individual persons and for an overall atmosphere. Forgive the immodesty, but in Fatwater Fewl’s thread about “changing polarities” as a result of message board discussions, the witness I and several others have been giving here has been cited several times as having moved and changed the minds of several people. That was a message I need to hear; it validates the effort I’ve put into trying to stand for what Jesus would say and do if He joined this board, in my own less-than-skillful way.
His, I can fully understand why trying to explain over and over again why your evangelical stance is one of caring and not of judgment can be wearing on you. Do rest, and don’t leave us – but consider how others who don’t know Christ are going to read what you post, when you do take up posting on religious matters again. I think you have a lot to contribute when you “find your footing” here and can express your POV without coming across as judgmental in the process. (And it’s not a tricky thing, usually; you just have to “put on the other person’s shoes” and realize how what you’re saying will feel to him or her.) Peace.
OUCH!!!
But I forgive you. 
If I have still also missed your point, my apologies.
God is fear, God is fearful, God is fearing
or
God is love. God is loveful, God is loving
Everyone has a choice, you can’t have both, because God does not change His own rules. Who knows what is right, you do.
Love
Leroy
Certainly it should be; however, sometimes people are first drawn by conviction of sin. As one grows as a Christian, they should also grow in love.
Sdrawkcab, about all I can say is that I’m sorry. I don’t mean to come across as an ogre who worships a tyrant.
I’m sorry for having forgotten your mention of people attending revivals in conjunction with recognition of guilt.
I definitely agree that on this message board, speaking in God’s love is more effective individually and as a whole for the board atmosphere. Given the nature of message boards in general, I’d say that’s likely the case for the majority of message boards also. However, I believe that convicting people of sin is actually most appropriate in one-on-one evangelism. In the context of friendship, it’s more possible to show that one is being harsh out of love – show love first, and when there is a relationship, then try to show people that they are sinful.
While I absolutely despise being convicted of sin, I believe that I respond to it just as much as I do to love. I need love, but yet when I do not feel that I am being convicted of sin, I have a tendency to stray from Christ and lose faith in the truthfulness of the gospel. I suppose I just hope that I’m not the only one!
You know, I once went to a seminar where a very intelligent and loving man did a lot toward helping me to understand how to be a less judgmental person. And most especially a less judgmental Christian. I’ll skip most of it, but this was a truth that stayed with me.
“Sometimes, you have to make a decision. Would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy? Would you rather be right, or would you rather be understood? **WOULD YOU RATHER BE *“intellectually right” * or DO WHAT GOD WILLS?” ** This is, of course, out of context so you probably don’t get what this has to do with my Christian life. I guess my point is that sometimes you THINK you “have a handle on it” and are “pointing out the truth to others” when really all you are doing is trying to prove that you know what is right." I don’t know, I am moving through this just the same as anyone else. Perhaps not as well as anyone else, I don’t know.
But you know, I made a decision, right then and there. I would rather be happy. And I would rather make GOD happy. I would MUCH rather do the will of God than run around trying to “make myself RIGHT.” I would start to attempt to LIVE GOD’S love instead of PROVING THAT I KNEW EVERYTHING ABOUT GOD’S LOVE AND SALVATION! Because I DON’t!!!
I really think that not only don’t I know EVERYTHING about God’s love and plan for salvation, I don’t know even a small FRACTION of what it really is. I know that there are people, there are people HERE, who know MUCH more than I do about it.
I’m not perfect, not by such a long shot that I will never get there…not even if I live to be a hundred years old. But I WILL try to live my life in such a way to glorify God, as best I can, rather than trying to prove that I am “right.” Which was, before that point, something I was trying to do. I didn’t REALIZE it until then, but I WAS!!! Much to my shame, once I realized I was DOING it.
BUT…I will do this with GOD’S help…I certainly couldn’t do much on my own.
Just my two cents. I’m not even sure that anyone else will think it applies here…I do, but then it was MY revelation, not yours…so maybe I shouldn’t even be sharing it.
And Tris, I got it too. It isn’t one of my particular besetting sins, but I got it and I will keep it close to my heart. Thank you.
I agree it’s difficult to make what’s being spewed here smell any better than it actually is, but I was more thinking along the lines that it’s much, much easier to dismiss someone’s personal views when they smell that bad than when they proclaim it to be “The Truth.” If you say, “I think you’re wrong,” I can at least give you credit for having an opinion, even if I disagree with it; but when you say, “You are wrong, and that’s a fact” then things get a little too broadly-painted for my tastes.
Esprix
Poly wrote:
A tree is known by its fruit. What she is presenting is not Christ.
In Dopers: Belief/Disbelief and Polarity Changes, Fatwater asked how Dopers had changed their views based on their experiences here. This is what Sdrawkcab said:
Any reaction to that, other than abject repentance and humility, is the fruit of pride and cruelty. Any attempt to defend whatever was said to cause such a reaction is nothing more than futile hubris. Any rationalization about “just stating what the Bible says” is utterly Neanderthal and pornographic in its conception.
We have been warned. Shutting the door to God’s kingdom, searching the earth for converts and making them into sons of hell, fretting over details while ignoring mercy — these make us vipers, hypocrites, and blind fools.
“They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” — Jesus (Matthew 23:4)
You might say that she is making progress, and yet I tell you that progress will not be made until she repents of her spiritual arrogance,sees herself as beneath all those she has chased away from God, and washes their feet with her tears to bring them comfort and soothe the wounds she has caused.
“If you stick a knife nine inches into my back and pull it out three inches, that is not progress. Even if you pull it all the way out, that is not progress. Progress is healing the wound…” — El Hajj Malik El Shabazz
As for you and me, our message of love must grow even stronger to assure people like Sdrawkcab that what they have been presented is not Christ but a bastard god of petty hatred. We must welcome them into our arms and lift the burdens from their shoulders.
We must present to them the Jesus Who actually lived and took upon His own shoulders all their woes and fears, the Jesus Who came to save the world and not condemn it, the Jesus Who brought relief and not burdens.
“Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” — Jesus (Matthew 11:29-30)
Leave those who believe they are well to heal themselves. Let the dead bury the dead, and bring the God of Love to those who suffer persecution and condemnation, no matter how well disguised.
Do not be patient with Satan. Strike him down when he rears his ugly head to usurp God’s Word and uses the scriptures to paint God as a servant of hell, jealous of men’s happiness, and bent upon stoking the fires with as many souls as possible.
Do not pretend to understand the evil one. There is nothing to understand, nothing worth tolerating, nothing of any concern to those of us who know Love and therefore know God.
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. — the Beloved Disciple (1 John 4:7-8)
Do not call what Satan does “love”. Do not attempt to paint a rosy picture with rotten pigment.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.
"Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” — Jesus (Matthew 7:15-23)
Stand away from the false prophets. Do not shield them. Shield instead your gay brothers and sisters who suffer at the hands of lies and calls to spiritual vigilantism. Shield those who yearn for God but are told they are not worthy.
Comfort those who mourn, not those who bray.
I hope you don’t take this as condensation, but that has to be one of the saddest things I’ve ever read. It seems to me that you believe God is not God unless he’s punishing you. That is a view of God you must abandon. The truth of the Gospel is that God is Love. God is not a tyrant that needs to guilt you into being a “Good Christian”.
Please substitute “condescending” for “condensation” in the above post of mine.
If you knew God’s love, I don’t think you would feel that way. Once you understand what love is, how it works, and feel it surrounding you, uplifting and accepting, total peace, total fearlessness, I don’t believe you or anyone would consider teaching anything else. Love casts out fear, it seems from what you say, that you are afraid you can’t control youself. That you need fear to control you. I don’t know you so maybe you are right.
There are lots of others who don’t need fear to control themselves. They are capable of doing so because of love, not fear.
I do understand that those who teach fear, hold fear within themselves concerning God, while those who teach love, hold love within themselves concerning God.
I would like to encourage you to seek love. The Kingdom of God lies within you, said Jesus. Look there.
Love
Leroy
Leroy and Homebrew, I think you know I agree with you. Perhaps a more balanced perspective would be to say that what lel and I have been saying is that there is a place for “tough love” in that showing-of-love spectrum. And of course one must hasten to stress that that term can be used to justify a lot of cruelty and judgmental condemnation, but I at least am using it in the true meaning, where the particular aspect of the showing of love that is needed in a particular situation is firmness and warning. But that must be done in a context where it is 100% clear that it is a demonstration of love, not a judgment.
I think it might be quite possible to adhere to the Bible-basedl standard that His, Joe, and Jersey have expressed and been chastised for in the past, provided that their posts had made clear that they were speaking out of compassion and warning of dire consequences ahead for the persons they were warning because they cared about those persons. For reasons I’m convinced were unintentional, the tone of their posts did not carry that sense of compassion (and, yes, one has to be careful in such contexts that compassion does not get misread as condescension, a totally different ball of wax). Having come to know those three people much better over the last short while, I can now see the love and caring behind what they had to say – but when l’affaire His4Ever began in these parts, I must admit that that love and caring was the farthest thing from obvious to me and I believe to most of the folks who joined in those threads.
To Polycarp
I understand what you are saying and will try to address it.
Fear is used by all physical authority that I know of.
Governments will jail, execute, etc., anyone who defies them.
Teachers will flunk their students.
Parents will beat, spank, ground their children and so it goes in the physical world.
But God is different, He is not like us. We are His children striving to be like Him.
Jesus said to not resist evil, and He followed His talk by not resisting His own crucifixition. He asks us to love our enemies, do good to them, and for those who demand things from us to give more than they demand. He asks us not to judge, and to forgive everyone. But it seems, no one takes Him seriously.
The reason He taught those things was to change our hearts from fear to love, as He knew God was love, unconditional love, and wanted us to be like God, and enjoy the peace and joy that it brings. He was not understood. Paul (in his ignorance) moved the focus off of Jesus’ teachings and onto the physical body of Jesus. Big mistake from the standpoint of knowing God, but it did build churches and congregations much faster than the old way taught by Jesus.
Now I could explain why following the teaching of Jesus changes hearts, but it would not mean much to this group. The real proof of the pudding is in the eating. And so if you actually do what Jesus taught, it will be revealed what the nature of God is, and all the other things will be added unto you. Just as Jesus said.
Love
Leroy
Jesus really meant what He said, yes, He really did. If it were not true He would have told you so.
Love
Leroy
Um, guys. . .
The point of the shopping is sin post was not to lay a guilt trip on you because you sin. The point was to explain to folks who think that pointing out sins of others is a way to bring people closer to the Lord, that it doesn’t work. Everyone sins. You might hate the sin, when it is someone else’s sin, but the fact is that you like your own sins, or you wouldn’t be doing them.
Sin is not the point. Or more specifically, sinners pointing fingers at other sinners is not the point. I would like to mention that my post was intended for those who were unwilling to accept that we must not do this, but what I have done is made a bunch of very dear children of God look at themselves as sinners again. I have done the thing that I just posted three times that I don’t thing we should ever do. Whatever my intention was, my actions stood between the Lord, my God, and His children.
Shopping is not a more grievous sin than others, and I don’t shop because I don’t like it, not because it’s a sin. If I liked it, it would be one of my sins. I have others. And what they are is not important, unless I let them keep me from opening my heart to the Lord. I pray that none of you ever even hesitates from that because of my rash words on sin, here.
See how evil it is to tell people they are sinners? Man, I feel dirty. I feel like I have been spitting on the floor in church, or something. Please forgive me, one and all, for my prior posts. This witness thing is very hard. Half the time, I am witnessing to my own grand and eloquent words, and most of the rest of the time, no one understands what the heck I just said.
Tris
Ego te absolvo, Triskadecamus! (And that’s only half in jest – because according to my beliefs I don’t have the authority to absolve, but I do have authority to pronounce that *God * has forgiven sin. And that I intend to do.)