For parents who refuse to ever hit their kids....

Great Debates
41

Sorry I didn’t make myself clearer, but I’m not interested in the views of any non-parents or those who are prepared to swat (lightly hit) their children. I’ve already heard what you’re saying before.

Duck Duck Goose:
Thanks very much… but what if they aren’t looking at your face…? Do you make some kind of sound? Or leap out in front of them?

Jonathan Chance:

That’s really ironical… it basically means you can’t me but I can hit you just because I’m bigger than you. Kids naturally imitate their parents you know.

robinh:
Thanks… I guess light swats can also be used to get their attention but so could you picking them up of tapping them on the shoulder or something. And what situations did you use these light swats in? And where did you swat them?
BTW, when you said NO with the electrical sockets, was the pitch of your voice higher than normal (fear/fright) or lower (anger/angression)?

Dangerosa:

Yeah of course it isn’t the evilest thing in the world. Maybe skinning people alive could be.

tomndebb:

As I said in my original post, I’m against hitting. But those with ADHD would probably be worse behaved and spankers/swatters would be more likely to hit them. And note that these kids might be undiagnosed. The parents might just think they are “very naughty”.

I’m just saying that maybe swatting/hitting isn’t necessary… that still leaves many options open.

42

You know, I did know that. But it was so kind of you to remind me.

It’s not that I could hit her because I am bigger than she. It’s that I am, at that point (and, I suppose at every point given her age) the authority figure. Part of the job of parenting is setting limits and meting out rewards and punishment.

Truly, I think it’s more a matter of discipline and learning. I think I made my daughter aware that others have the ability to do to her what she does to them. I think Robert Heinlein called it, “The unsettling feeling one gets the first time strangers shoot back”.

Oh, and if this is who you’re interested in:
In short, we all have to get socialized to the ability that authority figures have to affect our lives. Better she learns it there than later in life. God knows when I learned it (roughly between 15 and 18) it took years to sort out the consequences.

Who are you interested in hearing from? People who beat their children until Child Services sends the SWAT team?

43

Yes I do, in fact I have.

I had this with my oldest. He finally succeeded in making the connection and it zapped him. He never touched messed with sticking anything in the outlet that didn’t belong again.

I had three courses of action depending on his tantrum, my patience level and where we were. A) If you’re attentive (and lucky) sometimes you can head them off before they get too wound up. As soon as you realize the childs tantrum button has been pushed, kneel down to there level, gently and quietly tell them that you can see they are frustrated or angry (acknowledge their feelings without ridicule or humiliation) offer a hug, remind them that tantrums never work (but you have to be the adult, have a backbone and adhere to it to make it mean anything), negotiate a quick end to whatever is frustrating the child, (Often an overly long shopping trip) a favorite story, song, game or other special attention (not a “thing” but your attention) as soon as you get home and then keep your promise. B) I ignored him. A tantrum is about getting what you want and if you truly ignore it, then it’s not effective and they stop. C) Admitted to myself that he was overtired, overhungry, and overwrought and it was my fault for squeezing too much into an outing, picked him up and took him home and attended to his physial and emotional needs with food, nap and quiet attention.

A child that has been taught good manners and been praised for using them, will want to use them. Children tend to treat others the way they are treated. If you use manners, kind words, respectful body language and eye contact, they will treat you the same (in general, they will have “adolescent” and “teen” moments of course), I assure you hitting is the ultimate bad manners and battling a rude mouth with your fist will not make a well adjusted, well mannered child. It may make the child fear you, but not respect you or want to please you.

I strongly disagree with hitting a child with ADD, ADHD, or autism. How absurd to think that hitting a child is going to “make” them over come a physical or medical limitation.

You may be right. He’s a great kid. It’s not always been easy street though. I am the very proud parent of a young man known among adults and kids for his good manners, patience with younger kids, and willingness to help others in addition to his more playful qualities. He’s president of his youth group, literally weeks away from being awarded the Eagle rank in boy scouts, he’s honor roll taking honors classes (with a learning disability, mind you) and in addition to a serious Nintendo addiction and lots of driveway basketball, he plays football and swims competitively.

He’s never been beaten. Although once I did threaten to hit him with a cookie dough covered spatula when he kept reaching in the bowl, for some reason he thought that sounded fun. Oh and he was right, it was. Yes, there was a food fight and shamefully, I’m the one that started it. :o

44

I have never struck my children. Ever. Period.

There have always been alternatives. They’re vexing, tough, strong-willed little people. Ages almost 12, and 10 1/2.

I have used my voice until I was hoarse, in frustration terror or dismay. My parents spanked me routinely, either with a hand or a belt strap. It left me wondering how much of a Pacifist Quaker my mother was if she spanked me with her hands.

My kids are nice. They’re not perfect. They have their moments of being pretty rude to me, or their mother. I remind them, that if they’d been ME, in Gramma’s house, their mouth would have just been smacked. Gosh but they get contrite fast, and mean it too.

Witholding approval is so powerful. Much more powerful than smacking your kids around, which face it- loses it’s power after a while. You may feel better, but as a kid who was spanked a few times a month, by the time I was 10, it was totally meaningless.

Kids live what they learn.

Cartooniverse

45

You stop them by using effective supervision and taking care to avoid dangerous situations when they are too young to understand the dangers. It wouldn’t have occured to me to punish a child reaching for a stove when it was my failure to control the situation that created the danger.

I have never been adamantly opposed to the concept of a smack on the butt but I have observed in practice that its imposition is more dependant on the parent’s mood than the child’s behavior. I never found the need myself and I haven’t seen it to be terribly effective when others use it. Physical punishment is aimed at outward behavior and doesn’t do much to address the underlying concerns that motivated the behavior in the first place.

46

Absolutely not allowing yourself to ever hit your kid is like a cop with mace, a baton, but no firearm. It totally cuts short the level of authority, and limits options.

For some kids, just the possibility of getting a smack is enough to keep them in line. Usually more than any other kind of punishment. I do agree, however, that with some kids hitting them isn’t as effective. Hell, some older children would rather get a cuffing than be grounded. But to totally rule out corporal punishment in any situation is too limiting. And I would never tell a kid that I’d never hit them no matter what. The threat of a good whack can be just as, if not more effective than the actual whack!!

Also, let’s not forget that the way we view our own kids is not usually the way they really are all the time. For all those parents who refuse to spank, no matter what, then brag how good your kids are, I’m willing to bet there are at least a few people who know you personally and think your kids a brat. Sorry.

47

Nice slur. Most of us don’t raise our children in isolated caves. We know other children and their parents and are quite capable of seeing who raises brats. Parents who are involved and insist on consistently good behavior generally raise pretty nice kids regardless of their policy on physical punishment.

48

This will go on forever, because each kid, parent, and situation is different. I raised 5 kids and can offer a method that might help in some situations.

  1. don’t bother disciplining a kid who can’t talk, as they aren’t developed to the point of understanding it. Various methods of childproofing, restraints and such are indicated.

  2. most girls will do fine with minimum discipline. Most boys will become vicious criminals if they don’t internalize restraints.

  3. When your 3 yr old son has finally pushed you to your limit; take his hand in yours and slap it so your fingers hit his hand but your palm hits your wrist. The plan is to teach him you are bigger, have limits, set rules, and happened to miss this time. The effect on you is to hurt you more than it hurts him. This prevents you from doing it too much.

Physical discipline won’t work after the kid is about 6 or 8. If he’s going out of control by then, you’re in deep do-do and should get some outside advice.

49

In pkbites defense, I’ve never met another parent who would admit his child is a brat, despite consensus opinion of every other adult within a 10 block radius of the helion. I’ll admit it about my own son, and try as I might to correct it, I get less than two days every two weeks. He is far more obedient with my side of the family, however.

50

jsleek, nice post.

D_Odds, nice job of contradicting your own post. Most parents I know are highly concerned about their childrens behavior and ready to acknowledge behavioral problems. Parents may be a bit defensive but the surge in ritalin prescriptions is hardly a ringing endorsement for the idea that parents all see their children as little angels.

In any case, you might note that I did not challenge the questionable notion that we are completely biased about our own children in my response. I challenged his conclusion on the basis of my observations of other peoples children. People who are big advocates of spanking seem to believe that nonspanking equates to some sort of laissez faire parenting style; it doesn’t.

51

That’s right, Ned, and those of us who would spank our child (if we had one) don’t assume that it is the parent’s fault if the kid burned himself.

52

Don’t really think I contradicted myself. I’m willing to say that my son is a brat, something his mother won’t admit. My side of the family holds a child accountable for his/her actions, so when he spends time with us, he’s learned to be better behaved. He is not so good that he can turn it on and off at the drop of a hat, and I will admit it is confusing to him why he can get away with things with his mother but not with his father.

And if we want to talk abuse, parents drugging up their children at the drop of a dime counts. I’m not saying every child that takes Ritalin doesn’t need it; I’m not even saying most. But I would say a fair amount of doctors give into patient pressure (in these cases, the parent) and prescribe rather than instruct or counsel. (Having dealt with the nightmare of HMO’s and child counseling, I almost understand why a parent might opt for the easier option)

53

Adults almost always cut short their level of authority and limit options regarding disciplining children. Or do you think parents should not limit themselves from exacting anysort of punishment on their children? Some parents will not hit their children so hard it causes crippling. Some parents will not hit their child to the point where it should require a trip to the hospital. Some parents will not hit their child to the point where it draws blood. Some won’t hit in the face. Some won’t use a belt. Some won’t use a switch. Some won’t spank “hard”. And some don’t hit at all. All these parents have limits, that, no matter how obnoixious their kid is being, they won’t go beyond for the sake of discipline. So they all “cut short the level of authority”…do you think these limitations make their discipline ineffective? Do you think telling a child, “no matter what you do, I won’t ” will result in a brat?

54

You’ve misunderstood me. I don’t use light (or any) swats, myself. I was merely agreeing that those who choose to use them are probably not condemning their children to lifelong misery. I just think they could do better.

When we say “No” in times of really needing to get our point across (known as “using The Voice” in our house) we tend to use a tone of voice that is deeper and stronger. I don’t think of it as necessarily conveying anger/agression, but rather intensity and importance. It’s kind of like a stage voice, in that it carries and has fullness. Given the right situation, I have (inadvertantly) made grown men stop in their tracks.

To those wondering how to make a toddler respect the danger of a hot stove, I can share what worked for us. As I said in my previous post, we used the word “hot” to signify danger (of any kind) to our young children. We were inspired by friends who had raised young children in a house heated with a wood stove. How did they keep them away from the stove? When each child was old enough to move on her own, she was brought to the stove and her hand was held in her parent’s close enough to feel the heat (and feel discomfort) while the word “hot” was repeated in a warning tone of voice. This was done more than once, of course, until the child demonstrated an understanding that the stove could, potentially, cause pain. The parents were not demonstrating (or wanting to instill) fear, but rather respect for a potential danger. This did not alleviate the need for parental supervision, but it did stack the deck pretty well.

We did something similar. Lacking a wood stove, I used my coffee cup. I held my daughter’s hand on/near the side of the cup and explained that it was “hot”. Combining that with clearly preventing her from ever touching (or getting near) my coffee cup without permission was quite effective. She learned both that I would protect her from danger and that I could verbally warn her of dangers that were not readily apparent.

55

Oh, this is getting ridiculous. Ned, I may be reading you wrong, but your answer reads as though your child never tried to break away from you while you were out on a walk, never tried to go for the stairs as you were turning around to re-latch the stairgate after you walked up, never bolted for the front door, never opened up the knife drawer, etc., etc., all because your “effective supervision” is so omnipresent.
Is all your furniture covered in foam, or do you tether your child’s legs together so that the kid can’t run in the house and potentially trip and fall onto the edge of a table?

My mother was a fine parent, but when I was in my “terrible twos” she was also caring for an 8-, 6-, and 4-year old. Do ya think that she was able to keep me away from every danger, or do ya think there was once or twice when she turned around and saw me trying to climb head first out of my play pen? Or that, while she was stopping me from climbing headfirst out of the playpen, my four year old sister may have taken the opportunity to approach the proverbial hot stove?
I’m betting that it happened once or twice, and I’m betting the same or similar has happened to you, regardless of how “effective” your supervision is.

And no, I’m not advocating punishment as a response. How many times do I have to say that (I believe “I have no opinion” clearly stated my position)? I’m saying that potentially risky situations will arise with every freaking child, and that parents need to take action to stop the potential risk from becoming an actual injury. What that action should be - punishment, deterrence, the “scared face” - I have no opinion.

Sua

56

If you claim that ‘No child should ever be hit’, That is quite an extreme position.

I still fail to see how you can rationalize with an 18 month old, who under even excellent supervision can find themselves in a bit of trouble that needs correcting quickly, in a way they can understand.

PLEASE, will a non-hitting advocate please explain to me how you discipline a 1-year old who is playing with an 8-month old and the 1-year old is ripping th pages out of her book? Do you set them aside and talk to them? Just remove the child and separate them?

How does a smack on the hand, or even across the face accomplish less AND create a worse future for the disciplined child? Fear is good. Fear is fine…until the child develops a sense of rationalization of better reasoning skills, this cause and effect of “you tear pages, you get smacked” is completely worthy as a procedure.

We mired in anecdotal evidence…FINE.

I grew up with firm discipline, as did everyone I went to 12 years of Catholic school with. We are all more succesful, with healthier families and healthy, active robust children, free from major issues, unfettered by ADD excuses and all the other PC crap that burdens our public school comrades - and they were given “time outs” and learned to fear NOTHING and learned that discipline is always a soft, cozy, warm network TV event.

Firm discipline was expected, including hitting, or physical punishment of some type…like kneeling on your knees, or being paddled, etc.

In degrees, physical discipline has it’s place.
I’m so goddam sick and tired of watching the ‘time-out’ generation get carted of to therapy and act totally out of control more often than not, that despite paying $6,000 a year in taxes, most of which is for our “excellent” public school system, I am MORE CONVINCED than ever that my children (2 and just born) are going to Catholic School. PERIOD.

My son gets smacked, he has some fear of his parents and he is treated the “old fashoined” way, which terrifies the PC generation. He is leaps and bounds better behaved than the rest of the time out losers. He is better prepared for the real world. I wouldn’t stick him in a public school even though I’m paying 6 g’s a year for those schools.

His ass is going to Catholic School… and where I live, they administer discipline the old fashioned way: With ugly nuns who have bad breath, hairy legs, an attitude, a paddle.

The more PC the parent, the more annoying their children. I live in the real world, and accept the way things are, not how they should be “theoretically”.

I’ll be busy enjoying my life while the PC generation fights stress, time-outs, BMW repairs, bomb making, huffing, crappy attitudes, endless net surfing, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Take your little brats and fix their goddam asses before society bitch slaps them into reality. No one is crying for you and your little Parker, or Travis, or Cody. Hit the bricks, we have a life to live in the real world.

57

I saw a kid go home from the doctor’s office without his updated shots because Mom was so fuckin’ PC that she wouldn’t drag the kid out from under the table, or smack his ass to force him out.

After an hour of “reasoning”, junior and mom went home, without the medical treatment that he required because the doctors left.

My wife and I were so nauseous from listening to the debacle next to us that we couldn’t even discuss it. The nurses said he was months behind because of similar behavior previously.

MY description of that family: Friggin’ losers.

Guess medical attention just isn’t important enough.

58

Are you really suggesting that an authoritarian upbringing produces a higher percentage of socially-adjusted people than a so-called “PC” upbringing?

I await your cites.

59

Yes.

I have an entire cities full of cites:

Philadelphia
New York
Baltimore
Brooklyn

As Catholic schools have disappeared, the neighborhoods became more filled with animals…er…“kids” raised in Public Schools lacking the discipline component.

Maybe you have to live through it to appreciate the power if this “cite”.

Now, how would you handle Li’l Cody “No Medical Treatment” PC reared child that I described in a recent post?

That is a brutally fair question.

60

Of course there were panic moments, I once found my not quite three year old out the front door and ballanced atop a 15 foot retaining wall, scared the hell out of me. In that particular case I am pretty glad it didn’t occur to her that I might be coming to hit her. At that age she was still perfectly capable of seeing she had scared me and understanding why I thought it dangerous and I had a fence put up the next week.

Isolated incidents are going to happen but there is such a short period where they can get into trouble and not be told of the danger there isn’t much duplication anyway. My kids always found innovative ways to scare me to death. The only way I can see hitting doing any good is taking the kid around to all the identifiable perils in the house and slapping them to keep them from them in the first place.