Yes, and meantime, here are a couple of cites from the other side of the fence:
From http://silcon.com/~ptave/maurer1.htm
Then there’s this:
From here: http://unhinfo.unh.edu/frl/cp51japa.htm
I have yet to see any evidence that violence is necessary to raise a well-behaved, well-adjusted child.
One thing you might want to consider Phil is that it may be better to think of your children as human beings, rather than property.
L
Perhaps you could elaborate more on how these cities serve as cites. And by the way, Brooklyn is part of New York City.
I would prefer if if my children, should I have them one day, spend their time in school in geography class rather than in regular beatings.
Catholic education in New York City is far less a pervasive force than it was in my father’s generation. My father, a Jew, grew up on the lower east side, fighting off parochial school kids on a regular basis. He lived in the projects, where Jew-Catholic warfare was an everyday fact of life.
Crime in New York City is very, very low. Many traditionally disadvantaged neighborhoods are rapidly renewing themselves. Before September 11, the city was in better than passable financial straits and business was rather flourishing.
Yet fewer and fewer people subscribe to an authoritarian Catholic upbringing and NYC public education is at a truly godawful nadir.
So where is the correlation?
Bad parenting is bad parenting. Hold up “No Medical Treatment Cody” to “My Dad Beats the Shit out of Me With His Belt Every Day Billy Ray”. Cody may hide under the table. Yet it is terribly likely that Billy Ray will beat the shit out of his own kids. If he doesn’t shoot up his school and off himself first.
The problem with this statement is that there’s no evidence that it’s true. In spite of the SEEMINGLY higher numbers of youth violence, the FBI reports that violent crime rates hit a 50-year low last year. Please see http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm for information such as this:
This fact was also widely reported in the news media.
Also, who says Catholic Schools are disappearing?
What ‘facts’ are you using to determine that youth are more poorly behaved now than they were at some point in the past? How do you know this is due to a decrease in corporal punishment. I haven’t seen any evidence that there HAS been a decrease in corporal punishment, in spite of the lack of research showing that it provides any benefits.
I’m sure the net and all the “psychology” references are just filled to the brim with good hard evidence about the soft focus way of raising kids without hitting.
I’m going to tell you that you win on every “cite” and blurb you can dig up, because the books and net are full of them.
Then, I’m going to ignore all of them and function in reality.
In the meantime, I won’t bother everyone.
I’ll accept I am wrong in the eyes of the evidence and do it my way, based on my experience.
Good day, all.
And, referring to Billy Bob the Beater is insulting to parents who use some hitting when needed.
well.
that’s certainly one way to handle opposing evidence.
Please, please consider spanking a child before you ever allow this to happen again. 110/120V is enough to stop the human heart. It happens to be just the right voltage to disrupt your electric currents.
Thought I should provide a cite for my fact:
http://www.amasci.com/elect/elefaq1.html
From the FAQ:
I love this board.
OK. I don’t have kids, either, but I have a dog, who was once a PUPPY…
I know it’s not the same by any means, but ya gotta work with me, here.
I agree with you about “Situation B”, especially in cases where kids are asked to pick out their own switches (and would get in MORE trouble if they went outside and got a wussy little stick).
However, Situation A causes me some alarm as well, because on the two or three occasions when my dog has pushed me to the Smacking Point (when I’m calling her and she runs away from me–especially if there’s the danger that she might get hit by a car–I SEE RED, do you hear me? :mad:), I kind of freaked out afterwards about my lack of control, because for me to hit her… honey, it means I’m on the brink of a Temporary Insanity Defense.
Frankly, I think it’s my boundless (if momentary) anger that scares the crap out of her more than the swat. Like I said, there’ve only been three that I can think of (two because she ran away, one because she ran away and when I cornered her and reached for her collar, she tried to BITE ME :mad: ), so I don’t imagine she’s accustomed to seeing me so very pissed.
Anyway, the point is that if I DID have kids, I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I somewhat-involuntarily smacked one of them in the heat of the moment, as a knee-jerk reaction and not one that was somewhat “planned”.
I didn’t help at all, here, did I?
Philster
I’m not going to argue with you about whether Catholic schools are more discipline-oriented than public schools, because I don’t know.My children have only gone to a Catholic school, and although the school does not tolerate misbehavior, physical violence is never used.Notes are sent to parents, privileges are taken away , the child may sit in the principal’s office during the “fun” classes, or the child may have detention.In the rare instances that a parent objects, the parent is essentially told to choose another school. Discipline’s effectiveness has to do with more than the method used - for every misbehaved “child of PC parents” you can find, I can find a misbehaved child who is spanked if not beaten. And the reason is likely the same - inconsistent parents. Those who give in to the tantrum sometimes, those who take no action to nip misbehavior in the bud but allow it to continue for a while (I’ve seen many kids misbehave for 15 or 20 minutes without a word from a parent then suddenly SMACK) - in short, those who do what’s easiest right at that moment. That child who wouldn’t come out from under the table- why do you think he did that? Because it worked in the past. If every time he crawled under the table, his mother got him out from under the table and held him while he got the shot (which doesn’t need to involve any hitting), eventually he would have understood there’s no way to avoid it Instead, he got what he wanted, so he’ll continue to do it. And as for the 1 year old ripping pages out of a book, I suspect that’s expecting behavior that a one year old isn’t capable of- there’s a reason board books were invented.
( BTW, I have spanked my son, but it’s not something I’m happy about)
Doreen
that doctor and shot business?
um.
well.
My parents (who believed in spankings etc.) took me to the doctor when I was about 7 or so. I apparently needed a shot (of anti biotics). I told them I didn’t want a shot. They insisted. The nurse, my mother and the doctor all attempted to hold me down (and I was small for my age).
and
um
well.
The doctor got the shot :eek: in his hand.
At my mother’s funeral (some 20+ years later), that doctor’s kids showed up to pay their respects. I introduced my self.
they said, in unison
“oh, **you’re ** the one”
Apparently there’s no statute of limitations on that one.
So, from personal experience, the ‘holding the child down while they’re really fighting getting the shot’ doesn’t really work well.
I’ll give it a go. If we are making the assumption that this 1yo cannot be reasoned with, I think it is also fair to make the assumption that she will not really learn anything useful from a slap, either. If you feel that punishment is appropriate for this offense, then you must also believe that she is purposefully doing something that she knows is wrong. I don’t think this is the case. Rather, I think you have here an opportunity to teach her something about self-control and following seemingly arbitratry and mysterious rules, which she may not fully understand, but will follow because she trusts her parents. And I don’t think you have to hit her to do it.
What is your short term goal in this exercise? You want to save the book from being damaged. (I think we can agree that the long term goal-that she understand that books have value and should be treated accordingly/that other people’s belongings must be respected-is not going to happen any time soon. She isn’t ready for these concepts and cannot be expected to understand them.)
Is a slap on the wrist necessary to achieve this goal? I don’t think so. Certainly it may work. She can probably figure out that “when Daddy hits me, I must stop what I am doing, or he will hit me again.” Are there other alternatives? If my 1yo was grabbing a book away from another child, I would take it from her, hand it back to the other child, remind her that she may not grab, and offer her something else. If she chose to obey this rule, all is well. If she grabbed again, she would be removed from the situation. I might hold her on my lap, or take a brief walk out of the room. It may take a few repetitions, but eventually she will figure out that if she rips books, they will be taken away from her. She won’t understand why, but that will come later. In the meantime, if she wants to look at books, she will make the choice to be gentle with them. And if she wants to play near other children, she will make the choice to keep her hands to herself.
Where we will never come to agreement is that you believe that hurting your child and instilling physical fear of you is acceptable parenting. I do not want my children to fear me. I want them to trust me and respect me.
I don’t know about anyone else but when my son was a 1 year old, I kept books out of his reach. Thats not to say he didn’t get his hand on a couple from time to time Which I considered my fault for not being a responsible adult. As he got a little older I bought VERY cheap books for him to look in and write in as the case may be. Now that he is old enough to appreciate and respect books I buy him expensive books that he adores.
So reason for her not to hit others is because they might hit back?!
I think a better approach would be to say “hey!” in a kind of casual defensive tone, like you’d say to a good friend. And maybe block her hit before or after she hits you can maybe hold her hand to keep her attention and say that “it isn’t nice to hit people, ok?” (assuming that you never hit or swat her)
So you could work on her empathy rather than stopping her from hitting others out of fear.
But authority figures don’t necessarily don’t need to strike others when they are hit. If you copied her behaviour (hitting) you’re saying that I do that too - that behaviour can be acceptable sometimes. But if you just deflected her and acted surprised or something then she would be alone in her actions. So those actions would make her feel isolated since you didn’t mirror them.
This is what I said:
“…I’m not interested in the views of any non-parents or those who are prepared to swat (lightly hit) their children…”
What I mean is I am looking for parents who refuse to ever hit their kids. (see the thread’s title). 
Well I would come up to them and say “hey!” and hold the 1-year old’s hands still. And put the book down next to them and watch for a while. If the 1-year old began to rip the book again I’d hold their hands still again and take the book and say in a disappointed voice “but that’s such a good book!” and just put the book out of their reach.
Hitting them would discourage them a lot more, but they would probably be less likely to try new behaviours in the future.
There can still be discipline and consequences without physically hitting people - I mean even criminals aren’t hit. (Well they’re not supposed to) Do you think adults should be hit as well? (They used to be beaten and whipped)
Yeah, hitting can work a lot of the time, but I think that those that are hit sometimes copy this behaviour in an irresponsible way - e.g. beating up others, beating up their own kids, etc. I think the main reason people shouldn’t beat up others is because they should respect everyone, not because their parent says “don’t hit them, or else I’ll hit you!!!”
Time-outs aren’t the only form of discipline at schools - at mine people had to sometimes spend their lunch-breaks picking up rubbish (which is very useful) - they were supervised by the teacher on yard duty. And there is also suspension and expulsion. As well as notes home to the parents. And their parents could “ground” them or something. Or do you think “grounding” is too lame? Should kids be hit instead?
BTW, did you know that performing animals these days are usually only trained using positive reinforcement rather than with a whip? Why is it necessary to hit kids then?
That’s a bad attitude to have - calling other people “losers”. No wonder lots of people have low self-esteem. You’ve made your son very conforming because he obeys orders. But obeying orders can lead to things like the holocaust. Sometimes it is important to empower people to stand up for what they believe in, even if it means disagreeing with those in authority.
This may not be particularly relevant but…
My mammy raised me without any form of corporal punishment. She remarried when I was 9 years old. My step father got angry at me once for not shoveling the snow off the deck and flung me over his knee and started the spanking. I had never experienced anything like it. He finally stopped after he realized that I was laughing, not crying, and it was having the opposite effect he had intended.
Don’t necessarily agree with the entire post by Philster, but boy oh boy do I agree with the above.
Time out, my foot. Time outs are a joke. And sorry, I simply don’t believe that a two year old is going to understand reasoning about ‘why this makes mommy angry/feel bad, so please don’t do it’. Bollocks. For crying out loud, most adulst don’t listen to reasoning like this, why should we expect kids to?
Our problem is treating kids like young adults. We expect them to see the world and rationalize the world like we do – but they don’t. They are KIDS. We have to try and see the world through their eyes.
I am not advocating corporal punishment. But I very much believe that ‘hitting’ (i.e., a swat on the bottom, etc.), used prudently, carefully, and with purpose, will have far, far more good than bad. Actually, I think a good parent can ‘get away’ with hitting their kid a lot more than a bad parent does. Circular logic, perhaps, but a good parent probably does more to ensure the kid understands what the groundrules are, and keeps the rules the same (i.e., doesn’t change the rules simply because the parent is tired/grumpy/in a bad mood/etc.).
Just my two cents,
I am wondering if there is a “universal” definition of well behaved? I let my son have opinions, I don’t want just a doll that is seen and not heard. I would buy a doll then. He is allowed to express his disappointments, frustrations and anger many of those things I have caused for one reason or another. I do NOT allow him to scream or throw things or tantrum. In a store, I am not the mother yelling “shut up and get over here” I am more than likely the one talking to the kid half an aisle away coz I cant keep up with his energy level.
He is bright, confident and NOT afraid of me or anything else in the world. If that makes him and his energy as he bounds down the aisle at Wal Mart annoying to you then tough!
Parenting is one of the most challenging undertakings anyone could ever venture into. We’re working on raising four of them between the ages of two and twelve and so far, they are turning out to be pretty good children that we can take almost anywhere.
They didn’t start out that way…
On a few occasions they have all received a swat on the bottom when nothing else worked. Another thing I did with both my daughters was to take their hand in mine, swat my own hand and tell them “NO!” if their activity was potentially dangerous such as exploring the electrical socket or the parrot’s cage. This has been very effective and I am the one with the sore hand. As an added precaution our electrical sockets all have safety covers.
Tantrums are a form of communication, albeit a poor one. Whenever any of our kids have thrown a tantrum they have never gotten whatever they were throwing the tantrum for… giving in to the tantrum only reinforces the behaviour. Our children know that if they behave well when we go shopping there will be a reward for that good behaviour.
We give time outs, for the older ones the time out spot is the bathroom as once you’re there you can’t use “I need to go to the bathroom” as a method of shortening the time-out. For our daughters who are 2 and 4 we have a time out chair which we put in the middle of the kitchen. Before they are given a time out they are given a choice between acceptable behaviour or the chair and they usually pick the acceptable behaviour. They also know that when we start counting 1-2-3-4-5 it is time to think about what you’re doing as it will lead to “the chair”.
If our children were unable to behave properly while out in the community we wouldn’t take them. They have learned that throwing a fit in the store will get you removed from the store.
It is important to stress that punishment in itself is not very effective, there has to be a system of positive reinforcements in place that the child is willing to work for. ie. Our children know they can lose their television, movie, and Nintendo priviledges if they fail to listen or complete their chores. They also know that completing their chores and being mindful will get their priviledges reinstated very quickly. Our four year old daughter knows that she isn’t allowed to watch a movie until she has cleaned up her toys and the two year old is beginining to grasp this concept as well.
Now, for the last part of the question where you asked,
“And what if they have ADD or ADHD or autism?”
In these cases you are dealing with individuals who are dealing with significant disabilities which impair their ability to process information and they may not be able to connect their actions with the consequence. I work with persons who have developmental delays and the strategies for dealing with their behaviours can sometimes be extremely difficult to develop. Hitting is never one of them as it is virtually ineffective and illegal.
The child in this case may know intellectually that a certain action is wrong but because of little or no impulse control they may be unable to stop whatever they are doing.
Autistic persons already may have significant sensory or tactile issues where noise or physical contact of any kind is painful to them. In many cases the persons environment may need to be modified so that their stressors are reduced to a minimum.Taking an autistic child or one with ADHD into a busy shopping centre or a crowded restauraunt could just be setting them up for failure as they may simply not be able to cope with the amount of stimulation these environments provide. Physical punishment will only make things worse.
Thankfully, our own kids now respond well to discipline that does not involve physical punishment. They have learned that action = consequence and depending on the action the consequence can be very good or really bad. They usually opt for the really good.