I have a question, WhyNot, and I apologize if it’s been asked and answered already. I’ve been keeping up with the thread, but I’ve been known to miss things.
Once you were confirmed pregnant, were you then free again to have other partners during your pregnancy?
< slight hijack >
Also, as an aside to Rashak Mani: I understand that you are intrigued by the “open” arrangement, but I don’t think such a relationship is more “evolved” or “mature” than a monogamous one. I imagine there are a few polyamorous folks and folks in “open” marriages on the SDMB who would agree with me: It’s not about one situation being more advanced or mature than the other. It’s about what works for the people in the relationship and how they conduct themselves.
Sorry to veer off the OP, but I bristle just a little at the implication that my marriage is somehow less evolved or immature because my husband and I don’t wish to have any other partners outside our marriage. I am very happy for WhyNot and her husband (and congratulations on the upcoming baby!), and I respect the way they handle such situations. I, too, am intrigued about the logistics of such a relationship, but I make no judgments, whatsoever.
< / hj >
[hijack]I have to agree with FaeriBeth…while I’m fascinated that WhyNot is answering all these logistical questions because it provides a sociological underpinning to my firm support for legalized polygamy, I really resent the implication that I’m a person “hoarder” because I insist upon being monogamous. It seems as though there’s quite a bit of loaded vocabulary thrown around on both sides of the “amy” fence…IMHO of course.[/hijack] And of course, thanks to WhyNot for providing such info.
Roland, the reason it tends to be greeted with negativity here is that it usually comes up in the context of “My partner wants to see other people, plus me. Now what?” Generally, if you have to ask the sorts of questions you’re asking–that is, if your wife wanting to see other men is going to make you feel inadequate–you’re not poly. And if one partner isn’t poly, there’s pretty much no hope of a poly relationship working out for you.
It was something we talked about before our first real “date.” He had been in two open relationships before. I had just found out about my dad, and had spent two years in a sulk because of a majorly infidelitous relationship, so I was very intrigued with the open idea. Conversation naturally drifted to such topics, and we agreed we wanted to try an open relationship from day one.
I agree with AndrewL’s distinctions. Like I said, I’m not interesting in pursuing sex for sex’s sake. Sex for me comes out of an emotional connection with someone else. The same is true for WhyDad, or so he tells me (and I’ve seen no reason to disbelieve him). I have never “swung,” and so I hold all the misconceptions anyone else does. One of those conceptions (which may or may not be a misconception) is that swinging emphasizes physical gratification over emotional content.
In any case, WhyDad is not comfortable with seeing me being physically intimate with others. He is not interested in a threesome for that very reason. It’s actually been one of the “hot buttons” in our relationship, because I sometimes struggle to understand exactly where and when his comfort zones are in effect. Swinging, or having sex with someone else in front of him, would be WAY outside those comfort zones!
Perhaps. I’m not a man, so can’t answer first …uh…hand. It’s never been refused by a partner, and if it were, I would not sleep with him. Period. If I’m not worth a 5 to 30% reduction in sensation, then you’re not worth the risk of STDs.
I was not actively involved with anyone else at the time of my decision to abstain prior to conception, so this wasn’t an issue for me. But, as always, my husband and my relationship with him comes first. If I had been involved with someone else, I would have either broken it off or waited to concieve until a more appropriate time.
Sometimes. When I do, I ask. If he feels like sharing, he does. I’ve never wanted to know graphic detail, I’ve only wanted to know level of involvement. That is, did you have intercourse, or just snugglies? I don’t have a need to know positions or duration.
With child care a concern, it’s actually easier if we don’t have side partners at the same time, just from a logistical standpoint. Babysitters are expensive! We generally take turns going out - he goes out Fridays, I go out Saturdays, or vice-versa if there’s a particular event like a concert or something. Neither of us goes out every weekend. We don’t always go out on dates. More often I go out with my girlfriends or just hang out with the gang. Our relationships are about a connection with another person, and that happens when it happens. We’re not keeping score and making sure we’re “even.” It’s just not important to us.
The only time this is an issue is when we’re at festival, and one of us may be feeling as though we need the attention and the other has their eye on someone else. When this happens, we talk about it. We communicate (there’s that word again!) We do have a code phrase that can be used as a safety in front of others which means basically, “I understand you’re attracted to him/her, but right now I’m just not comfortable and I need your attention, let’s go away from here and talk, please, right now, thankyou.” We’ve never used it, but we have it.
Let’s be clear here. I was always, at any time, “free” to have other partners. That is, WhyDad did not and does not control my access to partners. Out of compassion and a sensitivity to his feelings, I chose not to seek outside partners for that period of time. I trust him that if I develop any such feelings, he will respect my feelings and have similar compassion for me. If, for example, I get huge and feel unsexy and insecure and need him to not sleep with other women when I’m 8 months pregnant, I trust him that if I tell him that, he won’t sleep with other women.
That said, yes, I feel OK having other partners now. His issues were around the genetic paternity of our child, and that’s done. I don’t have another partner right now, because I haven’t formed that sort of connection with anyone lately. If and when it happens, I will welcome it. And yes, even though I can’t get any pregnanter, I will still insist on condom use for STD prevention.
I agree. This relationship is the most “evolved” I personally have been in, but that’s because of the level of honesty and communication and personal respect involved, not because it’s open, per se. I’ve seen horribly immature and unevolved relationships of both the monogomous and polyamorous varieties. And I’ve seen incredibly evolved relationships of both types. My hope is to fight a little ignorance and that someday, polyamorous relationships will be just as socially acceptable as monogomous ones.
I used that word very carefully because it applies to my own monogomous relationships and my own feelings around them. It was further intended to distinguish those feelings from the feelings I hold in this relationship. It was not intended to be a sweeping statement about all monogomous relationships, and certainly not about yours. However, I apologize for any affront this caused you. I, personally, felt “owned and hoarded” by monogomous boyfriends who told me outright that I “belonged” to them and that viewing anyone else as sexually attractive (nevermind actually sleeping with them) was wrong and immoral and meant I didn’t love them.
I certainly hope that “belonging to me” mindset isn’t representative of the type of monogomous relationship you are in. I hope that your relationship is one of compassion and honesty and respect, just like mine is.
It is those “belong to me” mindsets that I do feel are treating their partners as objects to be owned and hoarded. While I had the misfortune to have several of those types of relationships before this one, I don’t delude myself that it is in inherent flaw in monogomy. It may be an culturally or biologically ingrained flaw in some people, but not the institution itself.
“Free” was a poor choice of words, here, on my part. My intended meaning was along the same lines as:
“I have finished my glucose tests for the day, I am now free to eat something sugary!” A set circumstance has passed and I am now free of the constraints of said circumstance.
I was not implying your husband was somehow in charge of your body or your keeper. I apologize if it was understood that way.
Certainly part of my “enthusiasm” is due to learning about something so different. I only know one “open relationship” couple. Sorry if I came across as condemning monogamous relationships… but the fact is that many are monogamous for some of the worse reasons. Your “owned and hoarded” comments rings quite true. Worse is the hypocrisy of men cheating on their wives and being shocked when they get cheated on themselves. Hypocrisy is something I particularly hate… especially when it relates to “subduing” women.
Still what WhyNot has described is something I cannot see any acquaintance of mine ever managing that well. The level of trust and communication that is beyond my normal circle of friends. A monogamous or poly relationship managed this way deserves great respect and admiration. Most of my girlfriends were jealous beyond the healthy and that certainly hurt my relationships for example… and deep down the jealousy and “control” aspects are cultural more than thought out IMO.
This seems to imply that people who are not in open relationships are less intelligent and less creative, that they don’t ‘question society’s assumptions’ nor determine what works for them.
I don’t think that’s accurate at all. Monogamous relationships are not necessarily about the arbitrary acceptance of some traditional set of rules. For some people, including the ‘highly intelligent and creative’ types, monogamy is how love is supposed to feel.
It doesn’t make someone a better communicator that they have an open relationship and someone else a worse communicator that they’re monogamous, nor can intelligence be assumed based on the types of relationships people form.
It seems like your attitude is that open relationships are for people who are better than those of us who are monogamous, and as if you see yourself as on a level above mongamous people. I surely hope that’s not the case.
catsix, that is such a misrepresentation of everything I’ve said that I don’t see the point or even the way to refute that. I’m sorry you’re not understanding what I wrote.
AsI have stated repeatedly, all this is about my relationships and my relationships only. I have no problem with monogamy for other people. In this thread, I was specifically asked how I do and feel about things in my own relationships.
And yes, I do think it takes a certain level of intelligence and creativity to even contemplate such a relationship. That doesn’t mean that intelligence and creativity are lacking in other people, only that they tend to be present in successful poly couples. That’s like my saying “Apples tend to be red or yellow” and you jumping on me for saying lemons can’t be yellow. I never said any such thing, nor do I believe it.
I’d say that due to the very nature of poly relationships being uncommon to society and culture… that it requires more intelligent and communicative people** in order to work out well.** Probably high emotional intelligence too… (something I lack… ) Though I do imagine that WhyNot’s friends aren’t a random sample… and that probably skews things in a way.
That naturally doesn’t exclude monogamous people from being intelligent… or dumb mongogamous from screwing up their relationships.
I quoted what you said about intelligence and the ability to question and change the rules and asked if you thought this was lacking in people who aren’t in open relationships, because it certainly is possible to interpret what you wrote in that manner.
I’ve read all your posts in this thread, and that’s the impression I got from you, from the ‘We’re the ones…’
It doesn’t take a high level of intelligence to have an open relationship at all. It doesn’t mean someone is less intelligent or less mature or that they cling to ownership and jealousy if they’re not interested in open relationships, either.
There are very intelligent people who are monogamous, and there are some very stupid peopel with open relationships. I think it’s a mistake to say that a person’s relationship status is an indicator of intelligence.
And no, actually, you didn’t ask. You told me I was wrong and told me what you thought. And then told me that I thought I was better than monogomous people.
I understand if you meant to ask a question, but you didn’t. There’s no question marks in your post.
I’m not in a relationship right now but I think that you can think of yourself as belonging to someone or have someone belong to you without it being “hoarding.” I think monogamy is a natural state of being for some people just as polyamory is for others. I belong to my parents and my family and will do so until their death or mine, as will my children belong to me and my family. We are connected by ties of blood and love and something deeper. My parents would die for me, my mom did nearly die having me and those are sacrifices and choices they would make because I’m part of their soul in a way that my children will be part of my soul. And yes, I do see the two people I truly loved (and nearly married) as having “belonged” to me just as I did to them…not as possessions over whom I attempt to exert a level of physical or mental control or dominion but as part of a spiritual union, a deeper connection and understanding we both had of the special status of our relationship, part of which was sexual exclusivity during the duration of the relationship. To you perhaps this thought is repugnant and or degrading of your humanity but to me it is equally repugnant and dehumanizing to think of other people as “extracurriculars” and it seems as though the manner in which you talk of monogamy and monogamous relationships does come from an understanding that it is an inferior or lesser romantic social arrangement (i.e. hoping for me that my relationships are as amazing as your own despite the monogamous nature of it). At least, your vocabulary, despite the multiple disclaimers you attach, is somewhat loaded at times (although, this is the internet so I don’t really care). However, I still really appreciate this dialogue with you as I am personally fascinated by how people arrange their family life, especially when they buck prevalent social mores.
There’s more than one way to ask something. There are prompts that don’t end with question marks, and then there are sentences that end with question marks and presuppose the answer.
I don’t know why you’re getting upset now, if you really believe that the type of relationships in which a person engages in no way indicates their level of intelligence.
Do you believe that?
I got a different impression from your other posts. I said so. You reacted as if I insulted you. I responded by again pointing out what I had quoted and the way it came across to me. I also said what I think about people’s intelligence. You said you agreed.
Now you post again to tell me that you didn’t see a question mark?
I’ve stated my opinion. You’ve stated yours. There was no reason for your last post to me, and I will respond no further in this thread to anything you direct to me.
I think I understand what you’re driving at, anu-la. Monogamy was chosen by Stonebow and I because it’s what works for us. We’ve discussed other models for our relationship and came to the conclusion that this is where we want to be. He doesn’t own me, though, anymore than I own him, but we do belong together.
Completely honest, open communication is vital to any relationship, but particular these types of relationships. Everyone has to know the situation - not just the spouses themselves, but the dates as well. One couple in our social circle that is also in an open relationship had a terrible experience where the female partner never bothered to tell one of her other lovers (also a woman) that she was married. Results - disaster.
It isnt’ for everyone, and if at any point one of the partners feels like it isn’t for them anymore, it has to stop.
There’s one thing I don’t understand: where do you find the time to pursue outside relationships?
I’m not married, but I have friends who are happily married. Some have kids, some don’t. All of them are extremely busy with work, school, and/or the demands of family. They hardly have enough time to spend together. Sometimes, when work gets busy and other circumstances arise, lack of time together becomes a real problem. Their opportunities for date nights together or for socializing with friends are pretty limited.
None of these people are in open marriages. However, when I try to imagine them having that kind of arrangement, I see one huge problem: time spent in a relationship with an outside party would take away time and attention that the spouse needs to spend on the marriage/other spouse.
When you’re in outside relationships (or your spouse is), do you go through periods of time when you spend much less time with your spouse? How do you cope with that? If it doesn’t make much of an impact on time spent with your spouse, how do you manage that?
As my lovely Lady wife has chimed in, I figured I’d add my two cents. Before I start, please let me state that I have no problem with polyamory or open marriages due to any sort of moral standard- my problems have always been with the logistics of it. That’s my only reason for opposing legal polyamorous unions, though I do believe in de-criminalizing cohabitation.
I am in a very happy monogamous relationship. Given the option, I’d stick with exactly the arrangement I have now. While I’m no prude (we all have fantasies) I don’t think I’d be able to indulge in an ‘open’ relationship, even with my spouse’s permission.
My biggest issue with open marriages is that they seem to be very…lukewarm is the best word I can come up with. My Lady and I have what I consider to be a grand passion…frankly, if it were not totally reciprocated, I imagine it would border on criminal. I just wonder- putting aside concepts like ‘ownership’ and such, do you feel the same way about your spouse? Do concepts like ‘soul mate’ apply? And if so, what tangible behaviors do you exhibit to differentiate your spouse from your lovers?
That’s a sincere question, btw. As i said, I’m not putting down anyone else’s lifestyle- as long as you and your partner are compatible, that should be enough for anyone.
Weekends, mostly. Neither of us work then. We don’t have a house, so there’s none of the “weekend projects” around landscaping or roof repair. Still, 4 relationships in 6 years doesn’t take a lot of time. Perhaps if I was more active, it’d be a problem. But we also agree not to let it become a problem.
Absolutely. The best way I’ve been able to describe it (and this only works when talking to other marrieds, singles think we’re nuts or speaking in metaphors, when really nothing could be more literal) is that “that feeling of knowing he’s the one” is certainly present. That feeling you feel for your wife that you didn’t feel for any of your girlfriends before that. That feeling when you meet someone that you “just know” that she or he is going to be your spouse. Yep, that’s there.
He’s “the one” I want to spend the rest of my life with, to have children with, to grow old and die with. He’s “the one” I can’t wait to tell the lastest news in my life to, to share meals and laughter and tears and all that other Hallmark stuff. He’s “the one” I would save first in a fire, stay up all night to hold his hand while he cries or clean up his vomit when he’s sick. He’s “the one” in my nightmares when I dream of his death, and my last lonely years on the earth without him. He’s “the one” who’s soul and body and mind fit me best. That’s why I married him, instead of simply dating him and other people for years.
Doesn’t mean that I don’t have connections or sincerely love other people, though. But those loves, while passionate and charming and sweet, do indeed pale in comparison to my connection with him, and not only because they don’t last so long or burn quite so brightly. But they’re all valuable and educational and soul-shifting (and, frankly, fun), and so I see no need to give them up.
And when I know he’s offering even a little of all the goodness that I get from him to someone else, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy and happy that someone else gets even a taste of the delights he’s brought to me. The sex is, for me, the least of it. I’m glad he’s sharing his compassion, his insight, his wisdom, his listening and empathy and humor. Like sharing a great book or poem or sunset, it increases my delight to share it with others.
) Though I do imagine that WhyNot’s friends aren’t a random sample… and that probably skews things in a way.