Forbidden Thread: Conspiracy 2

I’m reminded of a long-ago Vampire the collectible card game I participated in. At one point, we had four players sitting in a circle, when a friend of one player walked in. We explained that A and C were allied-- Enemy of my enemy is my friend theory. “Ok, I get it B and D are allies, too.”

Um, no. B was winning by a wide margin, and D would have been helping A and C except that there wasn’t really a whole lot that D could do to help A or C that wasn’t blatently self-destructive, which usually didn’t happen. B eventually won, presumably–I don’t really remember the game, just the look of befuddlement on the passerby.

And I can recall more than one game featuring more than 4 players where people sometimes strategized in ways that irritated their neighbors. (In Vampire, at least as we played it, one started out sitting in more or less a circle. Your prey was to your left, your predator to your right, and gameplay moved clockwise around the table. Your goal is to kill your prey, then your prey’s prey, then your prey’s prey’s prey, until finally you are the only player standing. )

In one memorable game, my predator did something stupid–or maybe his predator did something clever, I don’t recall. I just know that my prey offered to do something which benefited me greatly in the short run, and theoretically himself in the longer run, and someone else got really mad, because that’s not the way that predator-prey relationships are supposed to go.


But somehow,at least to me, there’s a difference between what my prey was offering, and the situation storyteller mentions of people making absurd offers in Monopoly, that makes one ok and one “so why did I agree to play this game with you?”

I think it’s the same kind of thing which makes Drainbead’s theoretical suicide because it helps the wolves ok, and suicide to aid the Cabal infuriating.

There’s a balance somewhere between any tactic not explicitly forbidden by the rules is ok, and exploiting loopholes such that the first 90% of the game becomes meaningless. And a balance somewhere between winning or the hope of winning is everything and making sure that the rules are enforced strictly and completely. I guess everyone doesn’t have to take the game with the same degree of seriousness, but when people don’t, that’s when people go whining to the authorities, or announce that it’s not fun anymore.*

If all the scum except Cabal suicided the first Day of the game under the idea that all scum win if any scum faction wins, I’d find it pointless and game breaking. But I think a Conspiracy Game with a mass scum role claim on day 1 would be interesting–because I think it would be in the interest of both Town and the smaller scum factions to know exactly who the Wolves are but not to let the Wolves know who exactly is Town and who are other scum. Which in turn makes it undesirable for the Wolves to announce their roles too quickly, less they all die too soon.

*Trust me, I recently played games with a 3 year old and a 5 year old. My goal was to entertain all three of us without bloodshed, and keep the little ones out of other people’s hair. The 3 year old tried hard, but has a limited grasp of the rules/strategy. The 5 year old has a better grasp of such things, but it is balanced by her need to have people do what SHE wants them to do. I think her ideal game would feature her making a move, then her telling you which move you should make, then her making a move, etc. so that she won every game in a repetitive manner. When I wouldn’t enforce rules I didn’t understand, she went whining to her Daddy, who opted not to come make me follow her rules.

It feels to me like there were a lot of modkills due to non-responsive players in this game. Now admittedly, some of that was due to the decision to modkill rather than permit substitution–which is a reasonable choice given the ruleset and the fact that it was announced upfront.

The problem, as I see it, is that games take sooo long, and so much of people’s time and energy.

I’d be inclined to encourage you to not explicitly allow post-editing, but to ignore it until it became a problem (in any Mafia game-- it seems like more than one game has been affected by some scum player doing something really stupid, which may or may not have included actual post-editing).

But I’m not sure what can or should be done about players who become non-responsive partway through–aside from discouraging them from signing up for future games.

And I’m REALLY not sure that there’s a good response to a situation like the one that may presently exist in Conspiracy, or that existed in Simpletown, where a deliberate choice of suicide by mod may influence which faction wins the game.

So what if **DrainBead **is the last wolf, and the town didn’t know it. Would you guys say her claiming Vampire would be equally wrong?

Well, one might call into question whether it is wise to make lynch order such a critical component of the game. If the game were to be so critically dependent on the order of lynching scum, then the game has some gameplay problems. The point of Mafia is to discover scum and lynch them. It is not like town can make reasonable distinctions between scum factions. Hell town has a hard enough time determining who is scum and who is town.
Furthermore the combination of multiple factions AND delayed faction reveal makes the situation that much worse. So if Town catches someone in a lie, they HAVE to lynch immediately in order to get the proper DATA. Furthermore, when a town power catches a scum Town needs to lynch immediately to test the claim. Town can’t wait until the endgame because they need to determine who is telling the truth. Seriously, I don’t see any other strategies for Town to employ. In order to find out faction, they have to lynch, but now we’re saying they should lynch in the “right order,” but establishing a “right order” prior to knowing faction is not possible! In essence we’re looking at a random event.

Hey guys. What a game, am I right?

I am off to be spoiled, but I wanted to check in and say hi.

I think it would be a valid game move, but reveals deficiencies in the structure of the Conspiracy game-setup. I can understand the idea that in a four way game the losing teams might want to gang up on the winning team, but in the case of “Vampire (above)” or Risk, or monopoly everyone starts out even, the same and symmetric. Conspiracy isn’t like that. The division between Town and Scum factions creates a different dynamic. It isn’t 4 symmetric teams duking it out. It’s 1 Town, and 3 scum teams.
In storyteller’s example, the irksome part is that his siblings align in a specific way to screw other siblings. In other words, storyteller’s monopoly game is NOT symmetric because his siblings reliably align with his wife. And that is the problem with multiple factions in Conspiracy, they are not symmetric. We’ve had multiple factions before and not had these problems, and I think it is because those games were symmetric.

In other words:
Team A needs Team B and C eliminated
Team B needs Team A and C eliminated
Team C needs Team A and B eliminated
Symmetric and no problems.

In conspiracy we have:
Team A needs Teams B C and D eliminated
Team B needs Teams A C and D eliminated
Team C needs Teams A B and D eliminated
Team D needs Teams A and B eliminated.

And I think that is the structural problem.

It would be significantly less wrong in my view than suicide by mod. Because it is the Town’s job to recognize false claims made for strategic reasons, and if the town collectively fails to accompish that job and opts to lynch a lying scum but it’s the wrong lying scum and it costs them the game, it’s a collective decision.

Suicide by mod is a unilateral decision. Suicide by mod is much more like knocking over the chessboard when you figure out you are losing. False-claiming in a way which promotes the win of anybody but town strikes me as a valid tactic. Especially since it carries with it a not insignificant amount of risk–what if people have miscalculated and the last Cabal member is in fact already dead?

It’s not quite the simple, since the Town and Cabal only need to the Undead and Wolves, plus possibly a few other players. That is, those two sides are mostly aligned.

The Undead and Wolves don’t need to eliminate any other side, but simply reduce overall numbers outside their faction. Actually, Wolves have a strong incentive to avoid killing Vampires.

But, yes, the factions are asymmetric. That’s what makes the game interesting! And I do believe I give each faction the tools it needs to win.

However, can we pause this discussion until the game is over, so the full rules and role distribution is public?

**peekercpa’s ** code
Aumvj PML $smsms. Nrdy $pbr gpt ypem, O$JP.

Decrypted
lynch ONK manana. best move for town, IMHO

BB = Blackberry keyboard

Poor storyteller, i don’t think I will let him live this one down.

Zsofia has claimed Cabalist. Hopefully someone in the Town will remember that Hazel claimed Necromancer in Conspiracy to try and throw the game to the Undead.

Shouldn’t matter. Known Town outnumbers unknowns. The only way Town could lose is if storyteller or peekercpa were somehow scum, and I don’t see that happening.

As long as Town lynches drainbead last, they win. With NAF (Vampire) dead, scum don’t have enough killing power to sway the result. The only thing scum could do is if drainbead suicides, but that’s just sucky; and nothing Town does can avert such an action.

Cabal could have a bonus night or day kill.

I suppose that’s possible. Well anything is possible. But the game is pretty much over either way. At worst Town needs to choose between Zsofia and Cookies with a slight chance that the wrong choice spells doom. But I doubt it.

Also I’m shocked that Pleonast decided to mod-kill Town exclusively. If the Zsofia resurrection turns out to be the difference between Town win and Town loss… that’s gonna be a sticking point.

Oh really? I beg to differ.

Why do you say so?
Don’t you think it is weird that Pleonast mod-killed townies, but didn’t modkill Zsofia?

Psst… Nanook was Cabal, and was mod-killed.

So are we saying Zsofia wasn’t mod-killed because Nanook was? And did Nanook fail to vote? I don’t recall that happening. I thought he edited a post or something to that effect.

Besides, he would have died regardless of the modkill. I believe the vig was still alive at the time.

I believe that the point is that Pleo has not exclusively mod-killed Town.

Town would have to go off the rails to lose at this point. If they systematically lynch everyone that they haven’t confirmed as town they win (obviously). With 1 kill of a townie a day scum can’t off town fast enough to win at this point.

Pleo should probably call the game.

I agree, it’s a done deal. Congrats to the Town!