From this thread, post #56, a year ago:
I know that Ed says it is not his primary motivation - and I believe him - but I always remember this post whenever these discussions reoccur. ‘please God, don’t let them find the Pit.’
You’re welcome.
Of course you addressed only the first part of my posts, right?
The second part dealt with the inane, juvenile nature of many of the Pit posts. Despite the ***ridiculous *** posts----and they were legion-------that vile, shrill, indiscriminate, use of profanity was necessary to achieve Ed’s vision of “raucous repartee”, the fact is most of them were blunt, witless and shrill.
What we’ve all learned (although we knew all knew this subconsciously) is that -----like the general population------very few people are creative and witty enough to use words like cunt correctly.
Creative people understand that words like that are garnish. Yet for too long those words the main thrust of the posters thoughts; profanity for the sake of profanity.
Look at the sticky about the rule change:
*"…Expressions not referred to above but which are normally considered vulgar (e.g., asshole, dick, prick, bitch, kiss my ass) are subject to the following limitations:
- occasional use only
- no posts consisting solely or mainly of vulgarities…"*
So lets be honest here. The rule change simply reduced the amount of juvenile behavior.
Again, you’re making my argument for me.
There is still no shortage of “vile, shrill, indiscriminate” profanity in the Pit, and the banning of a few selected insults hasn’t changed that. If the powers-that-be think otherwise, they’re like drug study participants who have been told they’re taking a sugar pill, and yet still insist that it’s curing their herpes.
Citing the rule itself does not constitute evidence about how the board has changed since its implementation.
The [new] rules never offered to produce a shortage did they? They proposed to reduce it.
And they have.
Ed isn’t interested in a “cure”, for a I suspect that the cure might be worse than the disease. What he [apparently] intended was to provide relief for the symptoms.
And that has been accomplished. (to some degree…_
If your cunts smell of tuna, you are doing it wrong.
Now seriously. I think the main problem with the cunt rule is how it was meant to address the needs of specific sensibilities. I am not going to go as far as saying that it was to appease Lynn and Tuba who got butthurt because they were racking them up like they were going out of fashion, but it is clear that “cunt” just as every other offensive word there is, is more offensive to some than to others.
Why should there be a rule to address the sensibilities of a few? Why no similar rules to address the needs of everyone else?
If the idea was to calm down the juvenile posting, then a much more obvious rule would have been “No posts that are just an insult”.
Look, I’m not interested in talking about this any more. I seem to remember you as one of the more upset/dramatic posters from last year’s board tantrum. I will say this, however:
What Ed/Dex said **repeatedly ** seemed crystal clear to me-------so much so that I was genuinely puzzled (and ultimately aggravated) at the confusion it seemed to inspire. I’m being absolutely serious here.
It seemed to be------best as I could figure----- was there was basically 2 groups:
- Those who were genuinely confused. I found that amazing that people could take this simple change and end up so wrapped around the axle with. Look back at the thread. There was post after post asking all kinds of word variations, situation variations, phrase variations, synonym variations, context variations ad nauseum .
TPTB were simply asking for everyone to ratchet down the vulgarity and juvenile drivel. On a board where half the members are Mensa members (and the other half has turned down membership) it seemed incredulous that people were confused when asked to simply use some better judgment and some restraint when posting. People seemed genuinely lost, however.
- I think the second group was not as confused, although they played that way. They asked the same inane questions but I think their intent was to *sow *confusion, to amplify any ambiguities that may have existed. (and the fact is, ambiguities had to exist at the start. It would have been impossible to outline every word, phrase, use, context)
That group didn’t like the change so a crisis had to be manufactured. The thread had a whole “March from Selma” feel to it. One big temper tantrum.
We’re a year in. The change to ATMB for mod disputes is working better than ever before. The amount of senseless vulgarity is reduced, particularly in Pit titles.
And what of the doomsday predictions? People who vowed to post until they were banned, people vowing Heaven Gate like board suicides, the end of western civilization stuff.
Did any of it come true? Any of it?
And you’re inability to understand what the heck we’re talking about to be laughable as well.
Look when someone asks for REASON why you do something, responding “because I want to” tells us absolutely nothing. Of course you want to, or you wouldn’t do it. A question like that for someone with even the remotest bit of intellect should be parsed as “Why do you like it and choose to implement it?” How Dex responded was a non-answer.
Of course it isn’t about the word cunt. I’m the guy who thinks personal insults should be more restricted than they are. I just think the disparity in power causes problems. If I do something stupid, I can be pitted for it. If a mod does something stupid as a poster, they can be pitted for it. But if they make a stupid moderating decision, the worst they can get is a “civil” ATMB thread, or a bunch of uncivil talk they can mod-smack until everyone’s more upset about that than the stupidity that already happened.
I used to think it wasn’t a big deal. But after seeing the latest threads on Marley and Czarcasm, I no longer believe this is true. I no longer trust the moderators to be above everyone else and do their jobs as close to without prejudice as possible. Thus, I rag against the first rule I saw that unfairly unbalanced the power in their favor.
When I first got here, I saw very little mod vs. poster crap. And that was less than two years ago. The point where I saw the change was this very rule.
Finally, for those people who keep trying the “Their boards, their rules” crap: This board has always prided itself on the moderation being fair. They aren’t those moderators that yell “My way or the highway.” If they did, I’d have have no complaints (largely because I wouldn’t be allowed to make them, but hey.) As long as there exists a place to decry bad moderation, I will continue to decry it. It’s the only tool we have to make sure that the moderation stays fair, and isn’t like the odd definition Fox uses.
You’re begging the question. Banning certain words keeps them from being used. Duh. But what does that accomplish? How is the board actually any better?
OF course none of that crap happened. Of course it was hyperbole. Without a logical position to argue against, people were reduced to illogical, overly emotional platitudes.
What you should look at is “Why in the world should a message board make a rule that so viscerally upsets such a large portion of its members?” “Why should the moderators’ emotional sensibilities be worth pissing off so many people?”
Again, questions that were never answered, AFAIK.
Does there need to be an “intellectual” answer as to why you cannot call a moderator a string of filthy names?
Why isn’t “we don’t like it” not sufficient?
I’m amazed at this mindset, I really am.
I would never have Ed’s job.
Listen, I’m not trying to be rude, but I really am amazed by this. The “…worst they can get is a “civil” ATMB thread…”? What would you propose?
Ferpetessake! If you don’t like the modding you can,
- Ignore them
- PM them
- PM an Admin
- PM Ed
- Take it ATMB
- Join a different message board!
Has calling them a bunch of names ever been effective? No of course not. Would it be in the future? Of course not. But no one was making a case for its effectiveness. Temper tantrums never are.
TPTB have simply said no more temper tantrums.
You just don’t get it.
If everything you say is true, then you have been given the parameters to “decry it.” Have at it. Open a ATMB thread.
From my POV, the mods have a thankless job, and they are imperfect people. They make mistakes. But on the whole they do a good job.
You have a means of redress. Use it. But its Ed’s sandbox and he says no more abusing the mods. No more tantrums.
If you don’t like it, leave. Its just that simple.
The questions were answered. The answers were not palatable so they inspired more and more and more questions-----all designed to derail a simple rule change.
But I think you have asked a very pertinent question and I’d like to give my perspective.
Answer:
We live in a time where it is extremely difficult to figure out any given business model. In years past, if you built it they would come.
No more. You have to give away your primary product and hope that through critical mass you’ll figure out hot to “monetize” it. Even highly popular site like Facebook have struggled on how to drive revenue.
That has spawned a whole generation of people who have been conditioned to believe that everything is free. I am stunned to see how many people and who are complaining the loudest and haven’t bothered to subscribe to a site they care so deeply about. :dubious:
So when I read that Ed was reported to say “Just the home page. We have ad guys out making calls, and what I hear is: Christ almighty, Ed, I’m trying to sell your goddamn site and I call it up on the laptop and the whole thing is pigs and six-minute orgasms. And I’m thinking … and I swear to you, this is not the primary motivation, but the thought passes through my mind … please God, don’t let them find the Pit. …” it seems clear to me that he is struggling to make economic sense of SDMB. And he has shared the various things they’ve tried.
So it would appears that Ed needs the Dopers for a site with no traffic isn’t appealing to advertisers.
OTOH, the advertisers don’t seem to be too keen on the kind of juvenile garbage that The Pit produces.
Hes between the devil and the deep blue sea.
So I think a part of his reasoning is the moderator’s “emotional sensibilities.” (although they are human beings, and unpaid volunteers and there is a compelling reason to keep them from being abused by witless children)
The other part is the simple fact that our subscriptions alone aren’t enough to make this profitable. He needs the advertisers, and hes striking a precarious balance between the two constituents.
I pay something like 8 bucks annually. 8 bucks. For a message board thats privately held. Many (most…?) are paying nothing.
The rule changes were good for the community. They were/are more than reasonable. And…if they find the delicate balance that makes this site more profitable and enduring than I think it’s good.
The notion that everything must be free, and that with my free posting privileges I should have a sense of entitlement is what is what truly intellectually vacant.
ETA
I’m done contributing to this thread.
Well, why start now, hey?
Well, it’s about damn time.
All of those posts about “You can always leave” and “It’s free, quit bitching” completely miss the point that the posters and the culture are what draw people to the board, what give it value. The hardware and software requirements are pretty laughable, the bandwidth even more so.
The salable product is the posters and their attention. You want more posters, make this the premier Twilight discussion board. But the posters here now are the ones that make the community, and you really aren’t going to be able to placate a bunch of people who want cites, to dispel urban legends, and to answer tough questions with a irrational explanation backed up by “because I said so”.
For someone who’s been around here for so long, you just don’t get it.
If TPTB really wanted to create a civil environment, they would institute stricter and more specific language rules. Rules such as no personal insults and/or don’t use these specific words at all, regardless of context.
The no personal insults outside of the pit rule is probably a good one, though not hugely effective. It at least helps curb the more casual use of personal insults. But the pit language rules are completely ineffective.
I don’t see how anyone can argue that not being able to call someone a cunt, but being able to call them a twat, for example, is an effective rule.
And don’t get me started on the uber vague “don’t be a jerk” rule.
Seems to me that TPTB want to be able to make whatever arbitrary decisions they want, so they don’t craft explicit rules regarding forum behavior. Lots of other boards do exactly that and they suffer no ill effects.
Who’s making this argument?
Buck-eyes?
Better yet…to the tune of the Meow Mix commercial:
cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt…
fuck it I lost count…
Hilarious 
<mod>
You know, there is respectful and constructive criticism and discussion of rules you don’t like, and then there’s…things like this. Suspensions in the past, warnings, nothing works, apparently.
Seeya, Xploder.
</mod>
The C-word isn’t just a vulgar word for the female anatomical feature, it’s also an aggressively sexist term for woman. At least, it has that meaning in the U.S. Perhaps they were thinking along those lines.
As a point of comparison–I don’t know what the official position is on the “male C-word” cck* but it’s clearly different from the C-bomb because, AFAICT, one doesn’t hear cck* used in the same way to mean a man.