Wow, only 68 words to demonstrate that you don’t know anything about homosexuals or the Boy Scouts. Way to go, MC!
Hey–what should he do if his kid gets molested by a straight Scout leader?
DreamSpinner,
Golly, I sure am glad you had wonderful BSA experiences. So did I. Now, what the hell does that have to do with their current inability to see that their policies are mongoloid and troglodytic? You seem to think that just because something has been a force for good in the past that it shouldn’t change with the times. You’re mistaken.
MC,
Lest you want a Pit thread, you’d better recant your claim that homosexuality equals pedophilia.
Oh, pl- don’t be silly. Straight people never molest. That’s the whole point! :rolleyes
God, the ignorance of people is staggering, isn’t it?
Zette
My mistake. There was no claim, per se, but the implication was there. Either way, it’s inexcusable.
My husband was a Boy Scout. He was almost an Eagle Scout. He loved it.
Now he is a popular 7th grade science teacher (in central NJ). He is well-known as being very involved in outdoor sports–with corresponding certifications in wilderness medicine, river rescue, etc. He received his early training in the Boy Scouts.
He has been approached many times about getting involved with the Boy Scouts. He is exactly the kind of person they are looking for.
And he always refuses to be involved.
He has some mixed feelings about it, knowing the good that scouting can do for kids, but in the end, he won’t support a discriminatory organization.
I volunteered for a short time with an outdoor adventure Explorer post. I have similar credentials to my husband, and I’d be a great catch as a leader. I would like to do it again, but I won’t–for the same reason.
If the gay policy (and the religion policy) stays the same, we won’t allow our future children to be Boy Scouts. As the above posters pointed out, there are alternative organizations. As more people look for alternatives, these other organizations will grow.
I hope the BSA changes their tune, but until then, we won’t be participating, either.
It’s more than just you and Dave, Bartman. It’s a whole flippin’ lot of people. Slowly, but surely, the attrition will weaken the organization. Then, they’ll either have to change, or accept their new status.
That’s a hell of a decision to have to make. I admire everybody who’s done it. Maybe if enough people leave for this reason, the upper echelons will realize that maybe their policy is hurting instead of helping them?
Former Life Scout here (boy, there are alot of us, huh?)
As almost everyone else here has stated, I too had a good experience w/ scouting… but I also don’t look at it through rose colored glasses, as some do.
We had a couple of gay scouts in the troop. It wasn’t a big deal. We had at least three atheists in the troop (hell, I was one of them). Again, no big deal. They are already there, they have always been there, and they probably always WILL be there.
As for the idiots stating the crap about kids being molested by gay scout leaders… What about his gay bus driver? or his gay teacher? or the gay guy next door? or the gay cop? or the gay fireman? Get a grip. There’s a better chance that if your kid is being molested by ANYONE, it’s probably by someone who lives under the same roof as you, perhaps the guy looking at you in the mirror.
Sigh Okay, at the risk of antagonizing many of the people on here I consider friends, whose opinion I value on many things and have always enjoyed reading; I must say something about this. Dave, you know I consider you a personal friend, regardless of the miles that separate us. But I cannot agree with your stand here.
First of all, we are talking about the BSA, right? Of the United States of America, right? I find it almost amusing that in this day and age of having the ‘We must be Politically Correct, no matter whether it makes any logical sense or not, no matter who it offends.’ attitude that of course one of the oldest Youth organizations in this country should come under attack. For daring, for having the audacity to stick by it’s principles and the standards which are the SAME <Yes, you read it right, the very same> standards and principles upon which this great nation was FOUNDED.
The Founding Fathers of this nation were almost to a man Christians, God-fearing men, who believed that they were called by God to found a nation based on the values and principles set down in the bible. This organization is now, and has always been, a private non-profit organization. That, according to the laws of this country, our Constitution and Bill of Rights is perfectly legal for them to have the policies and rules they do. They break no laws by their policies. And now, all these years later, a few extremists come along and decide that they must change, they must, for no other reason than to become ‘PC’, homogenize themselves, turn themselves into a parody of all the organization has stood for. An organization I must point out which has singlehandedly kept who knows how many thousands of boys and young men from drugs, alcoholism, gangs, violence and other such undesirable activities for the past century.
It is what this country was built on; founded on. That we, each and every one of us, has the RIGHT to worship as we see fit. To not worship if that is our desire. To hold to the tenets put forth by Almighty God Himself in the Bible and eschew the current opinions of a few who are insisting on forcing their views on the rest of us whether we want it or not. Since when did it become okay to tear down, belittle, and attempt to destroy any organization or group which dares to disagree with the allpowerful Gay Community? What, it’s okay to do that, but it’s not okay to dare even lift a voice in disagreement with the Gays? What utter nonsense is this? Our country was FOUNDED on the principles that we ALL have the right to our opinions and that NONE of us have the right to FORCE our opinions on anyone else, much less an entire organization.
And how DARE all of you assume that because the BSA policy will not allow homosexual members or leaders that ANYONE and EVERYONE in the group MUST be Bigots and Homophobes. Anyone who has read any of my posts on this board knows that I am neither of those, never have been in my life. I judge people according to how they behave, how they treat others, their character. NOT their sexual orientation. Of course there are a few people I’d just as soon do without, for a variety of reasons, in every group I’m afiliated with or know of. But that doesn’t mean I paint the entire group with that brush either.
The vast majority of Scouts that I have known over my lifetime have been wonderful, outstanding people who genuinely care about the boys in their care, who want to provide a better choice than the local gang to hang out with, learn from. Eagle Scouts are held by most of our society in such high regard that that is even on most job applications. Our son is an Eagle Scout. Mr Bear is an Eagle Scout. As was my dad and my older brother. My younger brother only made it to Life, before quitting to pursue girls and such. He regrets not finishing now. I was for several years both a Cubmaster and the Committee Chair of a Cub Scout Pack.
I am so sick and tired of the Gay community forcing their lifestyles on the rest of us, and insisting that if we don’t bow down to them and give in on every whim and grant them more and more special favors, then those of us who dare to disagree with them on those issues must automatically be bigots and homophobes and all sorts of nasty, unsavory characters. Yet, I don’t hear anyone coming to the defence of other groups, other religions or lifestyles. It’s okay to bash everyone else, just not gays. Horse manure.
I will defend to the death if necessary the BSA’s right to their policies, just as I will also defend to the death the gay community’s right to disagree, and for everyone to have their own opinion and the right to express it in a legal, non-threatening manner. THAT is what this country is really all about.
I thought much better of the people on this board. I have always thought of the SDMB as a place to share ideas and opinions; that everyone’s opinion was tolerated, listened to, and at least considered. Also that the vast majority of dopers judge people on an individual basis, and don’t blindly judge without cause an entire organization for having different views than their own.
Mods, I apologize if this is too harsh for MPSIMS. If you decide to move this thread to the Pit because of this post, I’m sorry. I won’t follow it to post there, if that makes any difference to anyone. This topic is near and dear to my heart and goes to the root of what I have always believed this country to be about. I have been silent for many months and tried to stay out of such ‘discussions’ <attacks, most of the time> but I couldn’t stay silent any longer. I have more to say about some of the posts, but will save that for another post. My son has also requested to put in his opinions, so I will be posting his shortly.
I will say that I agree with Ogre as far as his comment that MC came perilously close to calling all gay men pedophiles. This is exactly the kind of attitude I hate most; lumping all into one category.
Weren’t a great deal of the Founding Fathers not what we would term “Christian”? Weren’t a great deal of them Deists?
Help me out, I’m confused.
Quote:
“An organization I must point out which has singlehandedly kept who knows how many thousands of boys and young men from drugs, alcoholism, gangs, violence and other such undesirable activities for the past century.”
And which has recently asserted it’s right to tell any of those boys who happen to be gay or atheist that they can just rot. What a fine, straight, upstanding thing to do.
Purplebear, I really don’t think most posters were accusing everyone within the organization of being bigots and homophobes. Most of them bent over backwards to describe what a fine experience scouting had been for them.
Of course the BSA has a right to take this stance. Obviously. But we also have a right to let them let them know how morally bankrupt we think this stance is.
If my son wants to be in scouting, he’s going to have to be a Girl Scout.
Have any of you who have stopped associating with the BSA bothered to tell them who you are, your scouting background, and why you are ending support? Without that it is so much mental masturbation.
Work to change the status quo. Don’t write off a fine organization over one issue.
Been there before, and heard all the tired old arguments on either side.
However, I fully support their right to do as they please, as a private organization. Let gays form their own; I promise to honor any ban on straights that they may impose.
As for ‘morally bankrupt’ cher3, it is my opinion that bankrupt morals in this country are what have led to such organizations as the BSA having to defend themselves in the first place. Just because others choose to roll around in the muck doesn’t make it good or right, nor does it mean the BSA are wrong for refusing to stoop to the lowest common denominator. If in your eyes and others that makes me a bigot or any other epithet you wish to hurl, then so be it, and have a nice day.
Willingness to treat people with respect even if their beliefs and lifestyles differ from your own = “rolling around in the muck.”
This is evidently a definition of “lowest common denominator” that I’m unfamiliar with.
No, but castigating ANY organization over policies which don’t suit you is. If you don’t wish to play by their rules, fine. Take your bat and ball and go home, but don’t sit on the other side of the fence and whine and stomp your feet and insist they change. Change is not always for the better.
Cite?
By the way, I don’t necessarily disagree with your point that the BSA is a private organization, and have a right to be as bigoted as they want to be. On the other hand, if other citizens choose to exercise their right of freedom of speech to criticize the BSA, well, that’s their right also, no? Since I was never a Boy Scout, I don’t personally have much leverage here:
I’m thinking this wouldn’t be too effective here.
“Well, you know, I’m not a member of the KKK, but I don’t feel I have any right to criticize them over their policies. Besides, that would be tantamount to censorship! I don’t agree with what the Klan says, but I will defend their right to say it to the point of accusing anybody who says anything critical of them of the dreaded Political Correctness!”
Hey, hello, good evening. It’s your Mod on Duty here.
If you wanna yell at each other, we have a forum for that.
If you wanna debate the issue, we have a forum for that, too.
If you want to share a personal experience without getting yelled at, or without having to defend your stance, then this is the right forum.
I think you’re all smart enough to know what I mean, right?
Man, I am so mixed on this.
My first husband was a Scout. Didn’t quite make Eagle, but came damn close. He did become a leader, though. Scouting was such a huge part of his life, and it was a good thing. His parents weren’t as involved with him as they could have been, and Scouting filled the void.
I remember attending a ceremony when one of his Scouts earned his Eagle. It was one of the most moving things I’ve ever seen. I knew earning your Eagle was a big deal, but I had no idea just how big until I saw that ceremony. The boy got letters of congratulations and gifts from politicians and local celebrities.
The one thing I never understood about the BSA, though, was it’s stance on atheism and homosexuality. My ex and I discussed it more than once. Mind you, he was in no way, shape or form a bigot. He told me that most Scouts who were gay or atheists just kept quiet about it. My opinion was that they just shouldn’t have to, dammit. It’s supposed to bring out the best in these boys. Sure, they’ll learn tons of useful stuff that will serve them well later in life. But how can being forced to stifle such an important part of one’s very self be good?
As I said, he’s my ex (but Scouting had nothing to do with that :)). I have since remarried, and I’m now the mother of one fine young boy, and stepmother to another. My stepson is a Cub Scout, and by all accounts, he’s enjoying the heck out of it. He lives with his mother in another state, though. If he were here, I might object some. But my husband–his dad–just can’t be there for him like he used to be, when they lived here. In my stepson’s case, I hope that Scouting will fill the void.
My husband and I have discussed what we’ll do if our son wants to join, though (he’s not yet two). The answer is no, for now. If they change their policy, absolutely yes. But until such time as they do, I can’t see supporting them. I had to think long and hard about it, because I know that in most respects, Scouting is good. Very, very good. But these issues aren’t trivial. It’s discrimination. Willful, intentional discrimination against individuals because they’re different. And when these kids are forming these opinions and ideas about themselves, the last thing they need is exclusion and rejection.
I agree that they have the right to include or exclude anyone they want. But I also believe that discrimination based on sexual orientation or religious beliefs is morally wrong. How can an organization encourage moral straightness when such blatant discrimination occurs? It just doesn’t work for me.
The thought that I may someday have to tell my son “no” if he asks to join the Scouts breaks my heart. But I will make sure he fully understands why.
No, actually, you’re right on the money. That particular bit of Christian porn is an urban legend that many fundamentalists bandy about to make themselves feel superior and attempt to use to justify their positions, particularly when attempting to pass a law that supports a “Christian” position at the expense of the rights of non Christians, i.e. prayer in schools.
As to the rest of the “moral outrage” here, I’ve seen it all before. In tone and content, it is exactly the same as what mid 19th century white landed southerners used in defense of the institution of slavery. Reading period documentation from that time ( which I had to do while earning my degree in American History ) can be quite interesting. I am amazed that people could be so eloquent, so passionate…about something that was so all fired wrong.
As I stated above, on the troop level, I think 99% of scouting is a tremendously positive thing for young men. The problem is that the national council has made a policy that I can not condone. I do not challenge their right to make that policy in any way shape or form. For me to support such an organization however is out of the question. There is no definition of “good morals” in my mind that includes blatent descrimination. Were I to support that, I would be breaking MY morals, and not inconsiquentialy, breaking the oath I took AS a scout- to keep myself morally straight. Bigotry isn’t.
purplebear, the OP, at least, was someone expressing his regret that he can lo longer in good conscience support an organization which he used to belong to and enjoy because the values of that organization now clash sharply with his own. Please don’t attack him for that. If you still support the BSA, that is absolutely your right, but it is also absolutely the right of others to withdraw their support if they see fit.
Damn skippy, Bartman, I loved the Civil Air Patrol. But remember, when CAP goes out to look for lost people, those people come back in pieces.