It’s Catholic; not Christian. Real Christians, like the Baptists, don’t do anything special for Lent.
:dubious: With any luck, I’m being whooshed here.
Yoiu are…unless Homebrew has recently undergone some kind of dramatic conversion.
Yes. I’m mocking fundaloonies, many of whom don’t believe Catholics are Christians. In fact, many Evangelical Sects teach, as did the Church I grew up in, that the RCC is the Whore of Babylon mentioned in Revelation.
So now you dictate what others belief system is? Does your arrogance know any bounds?
Can you point out the logical fallacy in that little peice of heaven? God can do anything but it’s impossible for Him to do something? And you seem to be more dense han usual DtC. The whole point is that apparently Graham is saying that he does not think that God sent the storm. Uness you have a cite where Graham says that God dictates everything, then it seems to me that you have a false dichotomy in your premise.
I have been known to describe myself as as “Fundie” in the past, and I’ve seen office parties where there was more flat-out “Sinning” going on than at Mardi Gras.
I read the OP’s quote as Franklin waffling spendidly. He says, “New Orleans is an evil place” without going on to say, “…and it deserved God’s punishment”. But I think that’s the clear intent–the subtext–of what he’s saying. You can nitpick semantically about what he actually “said”–because it’s true, he didn’t actually say that God sent the hurricane specifically to punish NOLA–but I think it’s clear where he’s coming from.
As long as we’re pitting Franklin Graham, can I add his Operation Christmas Child to the pile-on? This is where you fill up a shoebox with Dollar Store toys ‘n’ stuff, and it gets sent to po’ folks chillun in the Third World. I have never, ever understood why he thinks it’s somehow worthwhile to send Hello Kitty ponytail holders and Pokemon trading cards to children who probably don’t have clean water to drink. Couldn’t that $25 worth of stuff be channeled into better, more lasting uses than providing plastic trinkets for Colombian slum kids? And they sent out 7.4 million boxes last year, which if I did the math right adds up to $185,000,000. You can dig a lot of water wells, and buy a lot of antibiotics, for $185,000,000.
And the list of “recommended gifts” is baffling, every year, in its cheerful, cluelessly imperialistic assumptions of what Third World chillun need, not least of which is the bland assumption that what all children everywhere need is a shitload of plastic toys on December 25 every year. “Oh, those poor kids! They’re not going to get any Christmas presents! Let’s send them a flashlight! And a Slinky!”
The recommendation of “socks” baffles me every year, too–people who don’t have shoes don’t customarily wear socks, Franklin. And who wants to get “socks” in their Christmas package?
Soap, toothpaste, combs–“You Africans don’t have any soap over there, so we’ll send ya some.” And ditto for “a new toothbrush” being a less-than-optimal Christmas present, for anyone, First World or Third World. And its imperialistic assumption that an impoverished Third World kid is so unsophisticated that he won’t realize that the colorful plastic thing the Americans sent him for Christmas is just a toothbrush. And the assumption that he’s supposed to be impressed by it, “Wow! A colorful plastic toothbrush!”
But what really gets me, every time, is the scrupulous reminder that toys that require batteries should have extra batteries included. They don’t seem to realize that even those batteries will eventually wear out, and then the kid is still left with a worthless toy. Send the kid something that won’t become totally useless in a couple of days when the batteries run down, like a ball or a jumprope.
I dunno, I just have problems with the whole concept, but I dutifully fill up a couple of shoeboxes every year with balls and jumpropes and marbles and plastic chess sets, because I am a Team Player, and I feel sorry for the Church Lady who runs the thing at our church.
Yeah, I knew that, I was having trouble wrapping my brain around the statement coming from you. I should have known better; I blame that I’m working in COBOL today and my mind is fritzing.
“I’m not saying ‘A,’ but ‘A!’”
And we’re the ones who can’t read? Yeah, right.
I’m not “dictating” anything, simpleton, I’m only citing what fundies themselves say they believe. If God is all powerful and all knowing then God controls the weather. If God controls the weather (or at least CAN control the weather) and is also omniscient, then no storm can happen without God’s will. Why do you think they call the “acts of God?” Is this something you disagree with? Do fundies NOT believe that God has dominion over the weather?
I didn’t say it was impossible for GOD to do anything, monkey brain. I said what it was impossible for FRANKLIN GRAHAM to do…to wit: that he can’t say that God can create and “use” a storm without having to acknowledge that the storm was God’s will.
Yiu want a cite that fundies think God is all powerful? Are you serious?
I could give a fuck what you think fundies believe. I want a cite where Graham says that God created the storm you obtuse moron. The cite above says he doesn’t think God sent it. You say that he has to believe that because he is a fundy, yet he said he doesn’t. That is arrogance, you twit.
Does Graham?I have yet to personally meet any fundy that said hurricanes were only devine conceptions. So no, not all fundies beleieve God has absolute dominion over weather. Science proves otherwise. I have read of a few that proclaim God’s Judgement whenever a natural disaster strikes. It is apparent that Graham specifically said he doesn’t believe that. Still you put up a strawman to say it’s impossible for him to say that. That is fucking arrogance.
So, you’re saying that God, in Graham’s belief system, is powerful enough to create the entire universe through an act of will, but not powerful enough to affect the weather? Sorry, as amusing as it is to watch you try to argue Christian theology with Diogenes, you really have no idea what you’re talking about. Graham has publically professed faith in a particular religion. This religion has a number of tenents, including the idea that God is all powerful and that everything that happens is according to God’s plan. Unless you can find a cite of Franklin Graham specifically disavowing those portions of his professed faith, it is not at all arrogant to assume he believes them. God caused that storm, just like he causes everything that happens in the universe, outside of exercises in human free will (I’m pretty sure Graham’s particular flavor of Christianity still believes in free will - I might be wrong there.) If God is going to, in Graham’s own words, “use that storm to bring revival,” and if God is directly responsible for the exsistance of that storm, then yes, he is saying that the storm was divine judgement. His earlier statement was simply double-speak to avoid the controversy that folks like Jerry Falwell called on themselves with similar comments about 9/11 and the tsunami. Pathetically transparent double-speak, at that, which makes your insults about other people’s reading abilities particularly amusing.
I’m not telling you what I “think,” Special Ed, I’m telling you what I know.
Hey, fucking imbecile, Graham’s a Southern Baptist, is he not?
From the Southern Baptist Convention
Southern Baptists (like most Christians) believe that God is both omnipotent and omniscient. If you believe this, you logically MUST believe that nothing can happen without God’s will. According to Frankie Graham’s own doctrine (as cited above) God knew that hurricane was going to hit the gulf coast before he created the world. he created the atmosphere and the climates that led to it. He could have stopped it anytime he wanted and chose not to. No matter how you look at it, the hurricane was God’s will and could not have happened without God’s will.
he did NOT say he DOESN’T think God sent the hurricane, he just said “I’m not saying that he did,” which is not really saying anything and which is belied by the fact that he thinks God is “using” a storm which he knew about beforehand and had complete dominion over.
I don’t think you know what “dominion” means. It doesn’t mean that everything is necessarily directly controlled by God, but it does mean that God CAN intervene and control the weather anytime he wants. See Matthew 8:24-27. No hurricane can exist unless God allows it to exist. Nothing can happen without God’s will. This is an inescapable conclusion for anyone who thinks God is both all powerful and all knowing.
Actually, in this case it doesn’t. Science cannot prove that something was not God’s will.
No he didn’t.
It’s impossible for him to believe in God’s omnipotence and omniscience while also believing that hurricanes can happen without God’s will…or at least, it’s impossible for him to believe those things while being logically consistent. People often do believe contradictory things and Graham is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. It’s possible that I’ve given his beliefs more thought than he has.
Regardless of his illogical and contradictory statements about the storm, Graham can fairly be called a moron for his statements about Voodoo and homosexuality alone (as well as other stupid, bigoted shit he’s said in the past.
I said God is not powerful enough to affect the weather? Did I say what I thought Graham thinks Gods limits are? Please quit pulling shit out of your ass. It’s pathetic that you seem to think that DtC is some authority on a specific persons belief system. And your sophomoric approach that Christianity, even it’s fundamentalist thinkers, is some sort of monolithic entity that all must adhere to your precepts is beyond ignorant.
You speculated on what Graham might think God’s limits are, yes. You said, “Not all fundies beleieve God has absolute dominion over weather.” This would be in direct contradiction to many of the core tenets of Christian fundamentalism in general, and Southern Baptists in particular. Franklin Graham is not only a publically professed Southern Baptist, he is the son of the foremost Southern Baptist preacher living today, and is a Southern Baptist preacher himself. So, it doesn’t seem entirely unfair to assume that Franklin Graham believes that God does, in fact, have dominion over the weather. If you have evidence to the contrary, that’s great. Present it so we can modify our understanding of Graham’s beliefs and move on.
That’s because he is an authority on the subject. If Graham doesn’t hold the beliefs Diogenes is attributing to him, then he is majorly out of step with the teachings of his own religion. Which is certainly not impossible, but I’d like to see some evidence of that first. You got any?
Sorry, but there are, in fact, a few precepts that one must adhere to if one is going to define himself as a Christian fundamentalist. Like the divinity of Jesus Christ, to grab the most obvious example. A belief in the omnipotence, omniesciene, and infalliablity of God would be another. There’s certainly room to quibble over some other stuff, such as “God hates fags,” or “All non-Christians go to hell.” You could definetly argue that those are not necessary tenants of fundamental Christianity. “God is all powerful and all knowing, and Jesus was his Son” is pretty much non-negotiable. And if God is all powerful and all knowing, then he knew what would happen when Katrina hit New Orleans, and he could have prevented it if he had wanted. He did not. Graham says that “God is going to use that storm to bring revival. God has a plan. God has a purpose.” Which means that God allowed New Orleans to be wiped out so it could be rebuilt as a less sinful, more spiritual city. In other words, Katrina was God’s judgement on New Orleans. That’s the plain text meaning of what Graham said. This means that his earlier protestation, “I’m not saying that God used this storm as a judgment,” is what we in the language business call “a lie.” Franklin Graham is lying when he says he doesn’t think the hurricane was God’s judgement, and that lie is proven by his own statements and the basic articles of his religion.
That is a whoosh, right?
Never mind (emabarrassed smily thingy)
The point of this OP and the subsequent pitting of Graham are not about what God cannot do. It was about the perceived intent of God, and if he sent the storm because NOLA is a place of sin. The OP quotes specifically states that Graham doesn’t believe that, and the direct quote from him says he isn’t saying that.
You apparently want to pit the fact that he is a Southern Baptists and what you think he believes, in spite of what he actually said, that God is somehow punishing New Orleans.
A prominent Southern Baptist says that they “dare not” speak of God’s intent. ISTM that Grahams belief system tells him he can’t know God’s intent. Yet he had the audacity to do so, just like many who think they know the will of God. But unlike most the OP’s cite states he doesn’t believe God used the hurricane to pass judgment. Many idiots said they think God did. I find it refreshing he didn’t. Yet he gets pitted for it by knee-jerk asshats on this board.
I just re-read the OP. What I got from it was this. Baby Graham is (sort of almost) saying that (in a nutshell) N.O got what they deserved. He just didn’t have the balls to come right out and say it. He talks all the way around it, and gets to judge plenty of people, without actually saying any damn thing worth hearing. I think he belongs here in the fucking Pit.
Your whole quote from Mohler supports everything I said about Southern Baptists, so I don’t know what you think it proves. It just further backs up what i said about SB beliefs that everything that happens, happens by God’s will. The quote you cited was related to 9/11 and and says that puny humans don’t have the right to say that God’s decisions are evil, but it does not deny that anything can happen without God’s will.
In the case of Katrina, the theodical aspect really doesn’t enter into it. It’s not relevant whether God’s decision to allow the hurricane was “evil,” all that matters is that (according to the dictates of Graham’s self-professed doctrine) God allowed it.
Let’s enumerate:
- According to the stated doctrine of the SBC (Graham’s denomination) Everything that happens, happens only by the will of God.
- Therefore hurricanes happen by the will of God.
- Therefore, Graham believes that God allowed a hurricane to destroy New Orleans and will now “use” that devastation to create a new city free of all homos and voodoo charms.
- Therefore, his claim that he’s not saying god sent the hurricane as punishment is completely disingenuous, and not really a denial anyway and is completely contradicted by every single other thing else that he said.