In books trying to explain French pronunciation to non-French speaking Anglophones, it is difficult to get across the concept of nasalization. Often, they say something like “the N is not quite pronounced.” In truth, the n is not pronounced at all. It is simply a marker for nasalization.
Un bon vin blanc. No Ns should be heard anywhere.
… in a vowel+N unit, that is.
I don’t mind fighting one of you to the death, but to have to fight both of you seems a little unjust. I think in the example of the English “pond,” most people would pronounce it “pon” in ordinary speech, just to avoid tripping over the D. The D in “monde” is more strongly pronounced. Revert to my example – does everyone agree that if there were two words, “mon de,” we’d be talking about two syllables?
This isn’t the issue. The book I am referring to is not for the layman … detailed phonetic information is given about the French phonetic system (based on the Île-de-France dialect, IIRC). The reader is expected to understand IPA notation, so the pronunciation descriptions are as close to exacting as one can get without recordings. Unfortunately, I am working from memory, so I’ll have to wait until I can get my hands on the book later on to confirm.
:dubious:
English speakers? I say it “pond” everytime :shrug:
Not me. It’s usually pon’. The “d” dies somewhere on the vine.
Okay, but how is this relevant? The English word queued has one syllable. By arbitrarily breaking it into two words – say que ued – what good would it do to ask whether you would pronounce it as one or two syllables?
But it’s not arbitrary – I’m contending that “monde” and “mon de” are pronounced the same way, whether as one word or two.
I always pronounce the “d” at the end of “pond.” If I heard someone saying “pon” I would think that they were talking about a chess piece unless I caught the context of the usage.
Sal Ammoniac, is it kind of like the pronunciation of the “de” is like a strong “d” with a kind of forceful exhale at the trailing end?
Okay, it’s time that a real expert on French pronunciation stepped in – but until then, I’ll just offer my uncredentialed understanding –
Except for C, R, F, and L, the final letter in French words is generally silent, including E. Specifically, word-final E in French, except for a handful (10 or so?) of very short words, like le and de, is generally silent and serves to indicate that the preceding letter is not silent.
So, if it were mond, then it would be pronounced [mo~]. But the E at the end of monde indicates that it is pronounced [mo~d].
Mon de would be pronounced [mo~ d@].
To extend my example, I would contend that “mon deux-roues” and “monde roux” are pronounced exactly the same, “deux” and “de” being homonyms in my book, even if the dictionary contends they’re pronounced differently – yet another can of worms, I supppose.
[mo~ d ru]
[mo~d ru]
Exactly how do you think you’re going to help someone with French pronunciation if you’re going to proceed from such assumptions?
deux is [dY] (as in German O-umlaut)
de is [d@] (a sound that exists in neither English nor German, but is usually likened to the central, unaccented vowel in English (schwa) – it’s like a very short French U (as in German U-umlaut))
I’m coming to the conclusion, Sal, that you’re talking through your hat, and it’s not a beret, at that.
Crap. Try again
mon deux-roues = [mo~ dY ru]
monde roux = [mo~d ru]
acsenray is correct, monde is only one syllable. I’m a French speaker, more precisely a Quebec French speaker, where this beer comes from.
I might later try to write phonetically how I would pronounce all these beers (which to my chagrin I have never actually tasted), but I find it hard to write how to pronounce words. And anyway, I think Quiddity Glomfuster gets closer than I could.
I suppose you’re also going to say that roux/rue or voudrais/voudrez are homonyms? Cause they ain’t.
IMO, any discussion of Unibroue beers starts and ends with Trois Pistoles.
Once you’ve tasted it, you won’t want to drink anything else.
Roux/rue no, voudrais/voudrez yes. (And I meant homophones, rather than homonyms – sorry.) I don’t doubt that a dictionary might indicate that voudrais/voudrez are pronounced differently, same as for deux/de. But does an actual real French speaker say these two words differently? I hear no difference personally, but maybe I have a tin ear.
I think for the purposes of buying beer, however, close enough is good enough.
I pronounce voudrais and voudrez distinctly differently. Voudrais ends with an open-mid front unrounded vowel, and voudrez with a close-mid front unrounded vowel. They don’t sound the same.
On the other hand, it’s possible that in some dialects of French (maybe some that are found in France) these two sounds might get confused. But in my dialect, they don’t.
Dammit! I knew I forgot one!! OK, so how does one pronounce “Trois Pistoles”? I’ve been saying, “Troy peh-STOW-lehs” which to me sounds WAY too Spanish…
As well, deux ends with a close-mid front rounded vowel, and de with what I believe is called a schwa.