Not to nitpick, but I think socialism holds the record on this one, not Christianity.
aenea, does your sister have a cross tattooed anywhere that would…surprise a viewer?
This happened to a friend from college. We weren’t close, but had some fun. He was an archeology student and a real partier. Then a couple of years later a mutual friend told me that while visiting him, he discovered the guy had been born again. He even changed his mind about archeology and believed in the young earth concept.
The unfortunate thing is, I might be partly to blame. In a way.
I had a roommate who was a literalist christian. He used to leave Chick tracts on my bed in the hope I’d read them and be convinced. When I mentioned this to my friends the archeology student told me to give him a couple 'cause he’d take them along on a dig over the summer, just for laughs.
[sigh]
I often wonder if that was the start.
What is wrong with shaking one’s ass for Jesus?
you first, Lib…
THEY’RE EVERYWHERE!!! ack
zimmdogg,
I didn’t say that intelligent people cannot be religous. I said that my friend who is intelligent turned into a religous NUTBALL. There is a big difference.
T was saying things that would make an intelligent Christian cringe. (The Earth is only 7000 years old; there were never any dinosaurs, all the bones are fakes etc)
In other wrods it’s not the Christian part that bugs me, it’s the NUTBALL part.
And to clear things up a bit, T and I didn’t fight or anything and I still consider him my friend. I hope that his new found beliefs don’t interfere with our friendship. (I don’t care what he believes but if he tries to force it down my throat I won’t take it)
Slee
Your friend must have been very disappointed when you didn’t gasp and sputter in response to his unassailable arguments that Nutball Theology is the only possible explanation, before collapsing to your knees to beg forgiveness. I mean, it always works that way in the Chick tracts, right?
Do you really have to ask? GIYF (Google is your friend!)
link «…After accepting Christ, she argued there was nothing wrong with “stripping”! When I accepted Jesus Christ, the Lord made in clear to me that certain filthy habits had to go! At the top of the list was sexual impurity, smoking pot and other mind alteing drugs. Christians can and do “slip” and “fall” with incidents of sin, but Christians are not committed to a lifestyle of sin.»
link «A number of years ago, in Oklahoma City, each night I would leave my motel to travel the only route I knew from my motel to a Bible Conference Center. And each night I saw, blaring forth from the dazzling neon lights of a local nightclub marquee, an announcement of the return of a cheap stripper, saying: “Wanda is Back! Wanda is Back!” Without entering into the den of iniquity, any passerby could easily conclude an entire story from these three words, “Wanda is Back!” Wanda, evidently, had been there before; she had enjoyed a successful engagement and parade of her visible pornography and nudity. She had left but was remembered, and by popular demand, “Wanda was coming back!” It could be easily surmised that this second engagement, or was it the third or fourth? would break all former records and add to both the former viewings and persistent imaginations of her past performances. All were invited back to extend their own sinful memories into deeper experiences of evil, as well as entice new members to her audience. The “double” or “triple” feature of Wanda would carry the spectator down into deeper despair.»
link «Early in the marriage, they visited a Dallas nightclub where a famous stripper, Candy Bar, performed. She wore a gorgeous gown. The devil comes in the form of light and beauty and can fool you.»
I have had a similar experience as the OP. YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE SUBJECT!! Some how, some way, the subject ALWAYS returns to religion. It’s as if the religious person must repeat himself in order to reinforce his beliefs.
Giraffe, not always. Sometimes the person doesn’t convert and dies in an accident a few minutes later, and gets sent to hell by God. That’s probably what sleestak’s friend is expecting to happen.
<<< I pointed out that more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other cause. T disagreed. I brought up the Crusades and the Inquisition and T didn’t know anything about that. I told T that he should do some reading. >>>
I really have never heard of this as proven fact and don’t believe it. Yes, RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES (do not point the finger at one belief, please - that’s very naive) are very large historical killers but the #1? And solely Christianity? I don’t buy it.
Also, all of the atrocities such as murders and other things which were performed ‘for God’ were performed by FANATICS. Not true Christians. Don’t forget that the World Trade Center last year was destroyed ‘for God’. I’m not trying to say ‘Muslims are bad and kill lots of people more than Christians’, what I mean to say is that there are fanatics in every religion. Many Muslims despair at the murderous actions of their fanatics, and I don’t support the Crusades. Neither do I believe you are in any way connected with any atheist murderers in history!
Don’t paint all Christians with the same brush based on something you’ve read in a history book - especially since you have to overlook every single murder commited by a non-Christian to make it valid in any way.
As somebody else said,
<<< just because someone does something in the name of Christ, doesn’t mean it is actually sanctioned by Christ! >>>
Precisely. Please don’t fall into the usual trap of blaming Christianity (this applies to everybody on this thread including the OP). This guy does not know everything about Christiainity, obviously; he’s got some quite fanatical, mistaken beliefs. But don’t just write him off completely, or the entire faith, please.
<<< T claimed that evolution cannot be proved and at the same time that Jesus is a proven fact. I tried to point out that, while evolution isn’t set in stone, there is a lot more evidence for evolution than there is for Jesus being the son of God. (Note, I did this in a very nice way). T came back saying that there is scientific proof that Jesus was the Son of God. I asked T for his proof and he said the bible. >>>
There is scientific evidence that supports Genesis (particularly the ‘Earth not being billions of years old’ bit, as I’ve had explained to me before. I’m 16 and have never researched the topic (and I’ve forgotten much of what people have told me!), so I don’t claim to be able to tell you this proof but there are a number of organisations dedicated to promoting this idea and also for combating so-called ‘fallacies’ in the Bible (ie things that people claim are scientifically impossible).
I have a book by one such company which dispells the myth that the various races somehow disprove the Christian account of one mother and father of man because the various races must have evolved separately. It proves, with scientific fact, that there ARE so little differences between ‘races’ and genetics CAN produce such diverse combinations that with the right genes a couple could have produced all the ‘races’ that exist today.
He is slightly off in claiming that the Bible is a scientific account, it’s not. It’s a historical account and a moral code, it’s supposed to show Christians how to live their lives. It’s not a school textbook and doesn’t claim to be. It doesn’t even claim how old the earth is, people have inferred that using the many chapters which contain geneologies.
But anyway, I’m getting sidetracked.
Ugh. This is why I try to STEER CLEAR of such debates. No one will convince anyone, and it truly is a spectacular waste of time, for the most part. It is rare indeed to convince a person of faith that their faith is a bunch of bunk, espcially when the person of faith is as zealous and “enthusiastic” as this fellow seems to be. And, vice versa. I would never dream of foisting my religious viewpoints on a reluctant recipient. Discuss differences in a civil and open-minded manner? I’m all for that. But to be aggressive in an attempt to change minds? Rarely does it work.
Mr. Blue Sky: Yes, of course, you are right. With some people, they will always bring the topic back to religion, if that is what they are determined to do. But, that doesn’t mean that one must engage in debate, or rebut what the crackpo…er…person is trying to preach. It’ll only make things worse, as they will think that you want to discuss the issue with them. And do you really want to talk about it? I mean, really? Ack, no!
This happened to my little sister, too. From the point of view of an outsider, it is alarmingly cult-like. There is a Baptist church near where I live that used to have the slogan “Everyone goes!” emblazoned on billboards, bumper stickers, t-shirts, etc etc. It was a gigantic church that would literally slow traffic to a crawl on the street where its parking lot let out on Sundays, for a good hour, while everyone tried to get out and go home. They had rent-a-cops to direct the traffic, there were so many people that went there.
Well, my siblings and I were brought up loosely non-church-attending Christian, thus I have been prone to very little religious indotrination. I pretty much abandoned it as soon as I was able to seriously consider the issue from both sides, and became an agnostic/atheist. (Aside: I once remember being taunted in the school cafeteria in about the 7th grade for confessing to a friend that I didn’t believe in God. It never really disturbed me, but the way they were kind of in disbelief about it has always struck me as kind of surreal.) Anyway, my younger sister, in high school, started hanging around with some girls that went to the “Borg” Baptist church. Mind you, these girls went mostly to hang out with each other, talk to the cute boys that went there, and it was very obvious. But it became like a “club” to them. They don’t associate with people that don’t go to that church.
This progressed to the point where my sister would get in fights with my parents over issues where she felt they were asking her to do something non-Christian. However, like most irrationally religious people I’ve encountered, she chose to cherry-pick whatever “good Christian” qualities were convenient at the time. (Never once was “honour thy mother and thy father” an issue for her, though. Evidently you don’t have to do that one to go to Heaven.) She got a good taste of her own medicine one day when she wanted to date her friend’s (the one that got her involved to begin with) cousin, and though the girl said my sister was like a sister to her, and a part of their family, and that she loved her, she didn’t want her dating her cousin.
The reason? My sister’s family (i.e., me, my parents and brother) didn’t attend that church they went to and were not religious enough for them. My younger sister did/does not have the perspective to see that sort of manipulation for what it is (and the fact that this girl is not her real friend), and now she’s going to a Baptist University and living her “Godly” life and not paying much attention to her passively religious family and godless heathen older sister (me). I got her a Giftmas present anyway.
Not surprisingly, she is also one of the most shallow, judgemental (though she claims to be very open-minded), superficial, out of touch with reality people I’ve ever met. She’ll learn some hard lessons one day for all this, and I can’t say that I’ll feel sorry for her. I won’t. I forsee a failed marriage, divorce and probably single mom-dom in her future. Real faith is one thing, and something my mind just cannot wrap itself around, but I all too well understand her behaviour for what it is, and can see what this organization and mob mentality has done to her. It’s a shame, but oh well. Some people, for whatever reason, just grow up with no desire to think for themselves.
You might be amused to know I found out recently that my mom actually believes that if you are not Baptised then you are going to Hell. She was Baptised as a very young girl. Interestingly enough, she never bothered to have it done to either myself or my siblings. I pointed it out to her and asked why, and she couldn’t give me a good reason. I got a rather good laugh out of it.
This happened to my dad about 15 years ago. He used to be a nice guy, fairly liberal, head on straight. Now he’s an ultra right wing loonie who believes … geesh. For example, he was convinced that through Clinton’s entire presidency he was trying to purge Christianity from America. He also believes every right-wing conspiracy theory that comes down the pike. He and his wife homeschool their 5 children because even Christian school is “too secular” and they want to have control over what their children learn. When they (the kids) learned the names of their body parts, they specifically didn’t tell them the names for their genitalia. The kids just ended up making up their own names.
It’s quite sad.
Arnold wrote:
I said shaking one’s ass, not shaking one’s finger. 
It happened to a friend of mine. There is nothing that you can do.
There is also nothing truer than the words “born again” because the person really is no longer your friend as you knew them, it is a different person now.
I don’t know if you can be unborn-again because I’ve never yet met a debrainwashee.
istara, I’m close friends with two people who were born again Fundy Christians, one of whom may de-lurk here in a few months. It can happen, but I’m not sure how common it is. On the other hand, it’s a lot of genuine fun discussing religion with them!
CJ
This issue is obviously deeper than anyone has anticipated. Until aenea sends us some photos and possibly video tape, we’ll never reach the bottom of it.
In fact, I’m starting to see the beginnings of an idea for a research proposal here. Do you think we could get grant money for it?
You’re definately right about that - unfortunately for the millions of people in this world who practice their respective religions in a rational, reasonable way, there are a few that become fanatical in their faith. And - those are the ones that are held up as an example as what organized religion can do. All I’m asking the board understand is that there is more to faith than fanaticism [my spelling skills are poor - I apoligize.] I consider myself a religious person - I am the daughter of a Methodist pastor, and fiancee of a Catholic Music Director. Religion has played a huge part in my growth as a person. But, I also understand that religion, or lack thereof, is a personal, private thing. Yes, it would be nice if everything thought what I thought, so I could be more sure of that whole salvation thing. BUT - I could be wrong in some of the things I believe, and regardless, I’m expecting God to sort it out later. So, if your friend is forcing it down your throat, that’s not what evangelization means. It’s from the Greek, no, wait, that’s another thread. 
A friend of mine ‘found God’ at University. I’m not religious, but quite interested in religion and we had some interesting conversations. But as his faith was ratcheted up, it became impossible. Every other word was ‘God’ this or ‘Christ’ that. He said he’d never marry someone that didn’t believe.
The low point was when we (Mrs N. and myself) were told by this friend of ours that we were going to Hell because we lived together before we were married!
The point of this sleestak, is to persist. We kept in touch, albeit intermittently, and found that over time he calmed down. I dare say his religious fervour is as strong as ever, but he no longer mentions it every third word and we can now have a normal conversation. We’re now good friends again.
If your friend means that much to you, be patient. I think people in this position are insecure in the early days and come out fighting. There’s a chance that as T settles into it more, he’ll calm down.
Good luck.
N.