Not terribly important, but I want to mention this to someone and didn’t find it through google.
The setting is a densely-packed city where everyone uses the public toilets. Because of the overwhelming lack of privacy there is a strong taboo against speaking or looking at others in the toilets. The protagonist recalls that his father once hit him for saying “ouch” in a public toilet.
I believe this was in The Caves of Steel but I’d like confirmation.
Thanks.
Don’t have it in front of me but it sounds like it. I recall that other characters were shocked when Bailey admitted he looked at Daneel in the bathroom to see if he was fully equipped with human parts.
I don’t remember that specifically, but the taboo is in Caves of Steel.
In the male bathrooms, anyway. The women apparently chat quite happily in the female bathrooms.
Yes, definitely Caves of Steel, including the part about his father (or maybe uncle) punishing detective Elijah Baley for saying something in the bathroom as a child.
Thank you, folks. Now I know I’ve got my reference straight.
Here’s a bit more detail. This is from Chapter 7, ‘Excursion into Spacetown:’
There’s other detail on the customs, and the fact that the womenfolk are free to gossip in their Personals, earlier on around chapter 4.
Great story, but I’ve always wondered about the part where it was mentioned that Bailey solved a murder or caught a murderer thanks to the social taboo against speaking in the Personal. How would that happen in the society of Caves of Steel? It might be a good story in itself.
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Since it’s a book question, I moved the threat from General Questions to Cafe Society.
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I remember wondering while reading that if Isaac Asimov had some hangups…
How did I know it’d be the bathroom question as soon as I opened the thread? I thought it both humorous and sad that even in the far future, Guys’ Bathroom Etiquette still applies.
Agreed it’s from Caves of Steel. As it happens, I’m now reading this book, Foundation's Friends - Wikipedia, which has the short story “Strip-Runner” by Pamela Sargent, set in that Asimovian 'verse, and which (among other things) takes us briefly inside a women’s Personal. One of the best stories in this collection, I’d say.
Initially, I’d just lump this with the Giant Rat of Sumatra or the story of the politician, the lighthouse and the cormorant.
Then I wondered how breaking the taboo might be significant. It might show that the person concerned was not aware of the taboo. Hence an outsider such as a Spacer (unlikely because of the contamination fears), a high ranking executive used to his private Personals, or a woman, unused to this particular male custom and breaking it while impersonating a man for whatever reason.
This obviously needs further thought and elaboration. All ideas welcome.
Elendil’s Heir, just saw your post. I assume the stories are set in various Asimovian scenarios? Will look out for it.
Yes, that’s so. There are Foundation stories and Robot stories, among others, and even a very silly Nightfall story. The quality of the writing is variable, but overall it’s worth a read for any Asimov fan.
Thanks-- I have got to get a copy of Foundation’s Friends. I’ve been in love with the Caves of Steel world since I was a kid. Especially the Strips*!
And I think of the silent Personals every time I’m using one with fellow silent males, looking straight ahead…
*for anyone that doesn’t get the reference, stop what you’re doing and read The Caves of Steel and The Naked Sun.
For the record, the custom of men not talking in the men’s room isn’t universal. Among the guys in the physics department, it’s not at all unusual to say hi to someone you happen to see in there. Granted, there’s no in-depth conversations, but it’s not the taboo I’ve heard of in some places.
And for that you should thank any and all deities past and present…
I have a boss who used to catch me on my way into the john, and follow me in. Then he’d stand next to the urinal and tell me what he needed on an upcoming project. guess he thought it’d be the only time he’d have a captive audien… no, I just realized: he was using non-billable time to get work done in order to meet an unrealistic budget!
I don’t think it suggests this.
My favorite kind of science fiction takes current trends and/or concerns and explores the way they might play out in the near(ish) future. Caves of Steel is a good example of this kind of science fiction.
Like many science fiction novels, it is set in a future where the human population has grown so much that there have been radical changes in the way we live and organize our lives. For those who haven’t read the novel–people live entirely in domed cities and rarely or never emerge into the outdoors. They did have private apartments, but they were quite small and didn’t include bathrooms or IIRC kitchens. People used communal bathrooms ('freshers).
I imagine that male locker-room etiquette wasn’t too different in 1954 than it was now. But the salient difference is this–Most situations where a middle-class man has to use a communal bathroom are voluntary and/or temporary. Examples would include college dorms, gym or sports locker rooms, and facilities used by soldiers. Private bathrooms are available either part of the time or in the forseeable future.
In the world of The Caves of Steel, communal bathroom use is not voluntary or temporary. It is the only option and will be the only option for the entire life of a man. Therefore it makes perfect sense that our contemporary locker-room/bathroom etiquette has become so much more strictly codified in this future. It would be the only way to get “privacy” in the bathroom.
It also would have made sense if things had gone in the opposite direction. It’s easy to imagine that the bathroom situation would have caused men to abandon any related taboos. While we don’t ever see inside a women’s ‘fresher, we know that women do talk and interact there. We don’t know if women are completely open or whether they observe something similar to current ladies’ room etiquette where some interaction is acceptable but people are allowed privacy if they wish. And it’s possible that male 'fresher etiquette could have been similar to current male locker-room etiquette.
Any of the outcomes would be logical. Asimov chose the ones that served the story the best. And even if 'fresher etiquette didn’t play into the plot, a description of his conception of it would have served as an excellent illustration of how people lived in that future.
In terms of actually hangups Asimov did have, though, he was slightly agoraphobic and that the idea of living in a giant domed city appealed to him.
He mentions that he found nothing wrong with the closed society of Caves of Steel, and was surprised by his friends’ reaction to the concept. So he wrote the short story “It’s Such a Beautiful Day—” to provide the opposing viewpoint.
I hadn’t heard of that story - thanks. I’ll check it out. The author of “Strip-Runner” also points out the good points of the Cities; although they would be unpleasantly confining to most people nowadays, they’re not entirely dystopic.