The Amish conform to local laws regarding minimum education requirements and school attendance, as do some high conservative Jewish groups like the Hasidim in New York City. Neither group encourages higher education but their children are required to and do receive basic literacy skills such that if they do choose to pursue additional education beyond their cultural norm they are able to do so.
In other words, yes, they have their own schools, often conduct classes in their own language, but their children aren’t crippled by lack of basic literacy and numeracy. That is distinctly different than a group that simply doesn’t send their kids to school at all.
I hasten to add that I don’t for one minute believe such ignorance is required among the Roma, and some members here are proof that it is not, but sub-groups, particularly those that relocate frequently and have no permanent address, are going to have trouble in regards to a useful education in the modern world. There are probably ways around that, if anyone wants to bother making the effort.
I also suspect some “homeschooling” types are likewise neglecting their children’s education, no matter how settled they might be.
You are really doing a good job of avoiding the point of our questions! It is entertaining and informative, though, so thanks for that.
I’ll reiterate that, when introduced to a woman I have not met before (and absent some other knowledge about their specific cultural practices), I must extend my hand for a handshake, because it’s more likely (where I live) that a random individual woman would be offended and think I’m a scumbag if I don’t offer a handshake (or ask about it) then if I do. I understand I may be risking a very small amount of women thinking I’m a scumbag for offering a hand, but this is a far lower risk to me by offering a hand than by not offering a hand.
Hopefully, the education can go both ways, and perhaps if a stranger extends his hand to you, you might give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s doing it because, statistically, a random woman is more likely to be offended if he doesn’t extend the hand than if he does.
NOPE! You’re missing one of the most fundamental characteristics of ZPG Zealot - everyone in the world is required to adapt to HER point of view. Asking her to do the same and accept someone else’s standards is tantamount to raping a puppy.
I didn’t know that. Now I do remember her as the crazy woman she is.
I’m still not convinced that she knows a whole lot about Roma culture. I’m still not convinced, either, that “informaly adopting” children is a Roma custom (not that it would be fine if it were, anyway). I’m yet to hear about this kind of adoption being in any way common. I’m not even convinced that there’s such a thing as “Roma culture”. As much as “Roma” seem to be the politically correct word in English, I know for a fact that it is rejected here by several groups, because Roma normally refers to the central European sub-group, and Sintis, Manouches, Gitanos, etc… aren’t necessarily interested in being conflated with them. And I’ve no reason to assume that such of such custom is “Roma” and current rather than someone that used to exist 50 years ago amongst Spanish Gitanos.
And when ZPG Zealot makes broad statements about “Roma culture” I wonder how much she actually knows about, in this case, modern days Bulgarian Romas. Especially since she’s American, and presumably isn’t in close contact with any current European group. Even more so suince she’s crazy regarding at least one “custom”, and I’ve no reason to assume her other statements are more reliable.
Except the poster I was responding to who seemed to know she had been with those “parents” for a long time and that she was happy with the arrangement. Given the circumstances, I see no reasons to make such assuptions.
I admit I didn’t know it could work this way, even though it does make sense. However, doing so “informally” without overview is completely unacceptable since it could open to so much abuse or conceal so many things. Especially when the pick is that bad (family living of welfare, already 13 children, criminal father).
As you note, the Roma/Romani/Gypsies/etc. are a large and diverse diaspora. Talking about “the Roma” is like talking about “the Jews” - only the broadest generalities are accurate, and you constantly have throw in statements about there being many diverse groups of them
I’m not entirely convinced of it, either, but since it’s a feature of many cultures and sub-cultures around the world it’s at least plausible.
I’m not even sure “Roma” is universal in the Anglosphere. Here in the US “Romani” is a frequent label and even “Gypsy”, because it doesn’t have as much baggage in the US as it does in Europe.
Again, it’s such a broadly dispersed group of people one word alone probably won’t be accepted by all of them.
Even so, the group involved in this custody issue would most likely be from the group(s) currently referred to as Roma so it’s not inappropriate in this context.
I agree, these days formalizing such arrangements should be done. Even if it’s just a matter of sending a kid to live with relatives rather than an actual adoption there are matters of legal guardianship that are best clarified by a written document properly witnessed and filed.
She is from the Balkans. I don’t remember if she was born there and came here or just traveled back and forth. Although I do shake my head at some of the things she believes I do not think she is lying about that. I do find it funny that the main opponent against Roma stereotypes on this board is a Fortune Teller that scams people out of money.
This does show that Americans don’t leave the USA much, it doesn’t show the opposite, as in the USA the Passport is pretty much never used for ID purposes, whilst it is in other nations. So, in other countries you might well get a passport even if you never intend to leave th eborders.
It’s actually stupid as hell and shows the OP doesn’t know what “cuckolded” means, in all likelyhood. What the OP is wishing is that the police officers *wives *get infected, not the police officers themselves. And no, one doesn’t nessesarily lead to the other.
Thanks for the response! I’ve learned two things from this answer:
You’re not comfortable answering the question asked. Let’s assume that his way of knowing about you is one in which he doesn’t know about your cultural taboo: maybe whoever talked with him thinks you’re crazy but is too nice to say so, so just left that detail out, or maybe he knows you from some official faculty list or something. Remember, we’re trying to create a scenario in which someone who doesn’t know about your taboo extends a hand to you, and to figure out whether you’ll murder someone for that.
More importantly, we learn that, despite what you said before, you’re not willing to use lethal force against someone who extends a hand to you for a handshake, FOR THAT ACTION. This is different from what you said before, and it makes you slightly less of a complete nutjob, for which I am grateful.
Now, since you might kill someone for trying to rape you, but you won’t kill them for offering you a handshake, do you see how that might be a fairly important and relevant difference between a handshake offer and rape?
And after all, it usually means better results: from being treated as the child’s primary contact by schools and hospitals, to things such as being able to insure said child. A coworker of mine from Texas couldn’t add the kid to her insurance until adoption was finalized because he was her grandchild, not her child; nor could she get him in the state-sponsored program because she made too much money (her husband was retired, the child’s parents were both in prison for two different things). They were the child’s guardians, but without an adoption they just got screwed from both sides; in other locations, guardianship is enough, but it’s still a lot easier to have the papers for it.
I think you’re right, but this is only part of the picture. In an ideal world, the government treats everyone with scrupulous fairness, justice tempered only by mercy. In an ideal world, everyone does the right thing when it comes to getting government services.
But in our world, the Roma have a long mistrust of the government, and the feeling’s mutual. Many Roma don’t trust the government to treat them with fairness; it seems that, unless they see a direct benefit from a government interaction, they’d prefer not to have the interaction. And it seems like many folks in the Greek government by default assume the worse of Roma citizens.
So we don’t live in the ideal world. We live in a world in which the government is sometimes unfair, and we live in a world in which people don’t always file the proper paperwork.
The question is, given this non-ideal world, what’s the best way of dealing with it?
I remain profoundly unconvinced that removing the child from caregivers’ custody is the best response to a lack of paperwork.
I dealt with a case a few years ago in which a mom moved out of town, leaving her kid with a friend. This was far from ideal for the kid, but it was better than putting him in a foster home, and when social services found out, it dealt with the situation by helping bring the kid’s custody status into the light of the law, helping the caregiver (and, eventually, the mom, once she was tracked down) sign the appropriate documentation.
That’s how such situations should be dealt with. Of course, the ideal would have been for the mom to do everything right to begin with, but lacking that ideal, social services did the best they could with the non-ideal circumstances.
So do only wear a t-shirt that says, “I AM ROMA YOU WILL NOT DARE TO SHAKE HANDS WITH ME YOU RAPIST SCUM!!!” every single time you leave your house or someone comes over to your house? Because that’s the only way I can think of that someone will know that about you within 5 minutes of meeting you.
Actually, I can’t believe you don’t see how this works:
You meet ZPG.
What do you do when you meet someone new? You offer to shake hands.
ZPG pushes you down a staircase.
As you lie crumpled and bleeding at the bottom, wondering why, dear god why, someone else who knows her wheels up to you in the wheelchair they’ve been confined to ever since they met her and says, “Oh yeah, ZPG tries to murder people who offer to shake her hand.”
I was discussing US families who take their kids out of school after 6-7 years. That’s fucked up. I have no evidence that such behavior is typical among American Roma, and my best less-than-informed guess is that it’s atypical. Because it’s so fucked up.
It’s not unusual for a poor American person to go to work after high school. And during the 1950s, IIRC most Americans ended their education in high school. That said, Americans have valued education in general for hundreds of years and most immigrants grasp that principle almost instantaneously. My strong language reflects this cultural consensus.
I agree with LHoD that the situation in Eastern Europe is more complex. Another article noted that the children of Roma immigrants to the UK do reasonably well in school, though they are labeled as retarded in the Czech Republic, etc. It takes them about a year to catch up. Which is another of the world’s infuriating aspects, as Czech secondary schools that the Roma are blocked from attending are pretty decent. Here’s a snippit from a report quoted by The Economist on Dec 14, 2011, relating to Roma immigrant experiences in British schools: All the parents interviewed during this study valued the overall atmosphere at school, their children’s feeling of being welcome there and their experience of equal treatment, equal opportunities, and the absence of anti-Roma sentiments and racism expressed by their children’s non-Roma peers and teachers, which they all said their children had experienced in various forms in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. They all said the prospect of their children’s education and employment was one of the most powerful driving forces behind their decision to move to the UK. Many of them thought it would take generations to change these practices and attitudes in Slovakia and the Czech Republic and some doubted whether they would ever change. All of them believed their children’s chances to succeed later on in life were much better in Britain than in Slovakia and the Czech Republic. [PDF!] http://www.romaeducationfund.hu/sites/default/files/publications/ref_uk_report_nov2011_screen_singlepages.pdf [PDF!]
Economist, sub req Flourishing abroad, derided at home