By “mainstream,” I meant to imply “modern.” I wouldn’t accept a guide from the medieval era, and nor will I accept one from the early 20th century.
Post recommends that men REMOVE their glove before shaking a womadn’s hand–that is, engaging in exactly the behavior that would make the handshake taboo to ZPG. It appears that this mainstream historical culture considered it gentlemanly to touch women in this regard, and makes it clear that a woman must not initiate the handshake.
The bit you snipped is important: “All people who know each other, unless merely passing by, shake hands when they meet.” It appears that this mainstream etiquette guide wants men and women to shake hands once they’re acquainted with one another.
No problem with having a minority view, ZPG, but admit it’s not the mainstream and conduct yourself accordingly.
Good heavens, how old are you, and what year was it when you fell asleep? It has been several decades since any man in modern western society could be considered a non-gentleman simply for offering a handshake to a lady instead of waiting for her to offer one to him.
Even in purely social contexts, that rule has been quaint verging on obsolete for some time now. And in business contexts, it’s thoroughly obsolete.
No gentleman in a business environment would make a lady unpleasantly conspicuous by treating her with such exaggeratedly old-fashioned gallantry. It would be tantamount to insinuating that she doesn’t really belong in the business world, because an ordinary businesslike demeanor isn’t appropriate for her.
Find me even ONE published recent guide to etiquette in modern western society that says a man is conventionally expected to explicitly ask a lady’s permission in the hearing of a witness before offering her his hand to shake, and I will volunteer to procure a copy of that guide and eat it, from title page to index.
Thank you. I quote the last paragraph of that March 1986 newspaper column:
Note that by “refusing to shake a proffered hand”, Miss Manners means simply ignoring the gesture or declining it without apology. As I noted above, it’s not rude to say politely “I’m sorry, I don’t shake hands”. But there needs to be an apology in there, to acknowledge the fact that handshaking is customary as a gesture of good will and refusing to shake hands with someone who has offered that gesture is usually considered insulting.
Speaking as the person who probably should be considered “the one who brought it up” in the first place, allow me to state plainly that I have no interest at all in “dismissing the amount of discimination (or, indeed, discrimination) faced by Roma”. While I freely admit that “the Roma sure do get discriminated against a lot” is fairly low down on my list of things to worry about on a daily basis, I do believe wholeheartedly that discrimination against any group of people based on their belonging to said group is wrong, and the world would be a better place if we could eliminate such bigotry and prejudice. Further, I hold absolutely no animosity toward the Roma as a people in general, and I do not endorse any attempts to, basically, be really shitty to them.
No, indeed, the only reason I brought it up in the first place is because I believe that you, personally, ZPG Zealot, are pants-wettingly, hilariously insane, and this handshake thing is exhibit A. I suppose that, while I originally intended nothing more than a throw-away joke that might make a few people chuckle and move on, I must admit that deep down, I probably find a thread about kidnapping and the very real, serious issues surrounding this case less entertaining than a thread in which we watch you flail about attempting to make an actual defense of your bizarre theory.
That probably makes me a shallow, insensitive person. I’ll add that to my list of things to worry about.
I just can’t get over this, ZPG, and genuinely want to understand your thinking. I’m trying to come up with a scenario in which everything we’ve talked about comes to bear, so consider these two scenarios:
You’re at a party–or some other event with loud noise. You’re at the top of a stairwell, with nobody else around or within earshot (due to the loud noise). You see a man come up the stairs and recognize him as someone who has explicitly threatened to rape you. He leers at you and advances. You’re certain that you’re seconds away from being pushed into a room and being raped by him. What do you do? If you attempt to disable him, how? (Remember, if you don’t have any weapons, that he’s on a stairway; if you push him suddenly, he’ll probably fall down and might die in the process).
You’re at a party–or some other event with loud noise. You’re at the top of a stairwell, with nobody else around or within earshot (due to the loud noise). You see a man come up the stairs and recognize him as the friend of a friend. He apparently recognizes you too and shouts over the music, “You must be ZPG! I’ve heard so much about you!” and extends his hand for a shake. You’re certain that you’re seconds away from him looking at you confused because you didn’t shake his hand, and maybe him reaching up for an awkward hair-smoothing before dropping his hand to his side. What do you do? If you attempt to disable him, how? (Remember, if you don’t have any weapons, that he’s on a stairway; if you push him suddenly, he’ll probably fall down and might die in the process).
If your parents introduce you to a friend’s son in the hopes that you might like each other, that isn’t anything to be outraged over. If your potential parents-in-law buy you when you are a prepubescent child (sorry, pay your dowry) so they can groom you to be their son’s wife (sorry, to make you grow up as a Romany because they want you to be a suitable wife), that sounds a lot more like slavery.
I can think of nothing more insulting than deciding that the fact someone is a woman is a reasonable basis to think they might be as insane as you are.
FTR, I’m not complaining about individuals. I’m complaining about some groups of Roma and their mores.
My condemnation (of some, not all, Roma groups) was prompted by another Economist article from 1998: Gypsies in America:
[QUOTE=The Economist]
Many of America’s gypsies still keep to the ways of outsiders. Although they have branched out into other occupations, their distinctive trades, as in Europe, include scrap-metal dealing, car repair and fortune-telling. Fortune-telling is intensely controversial among the American Roma. Some see it as a legitimate business enterprise; others say it reinforces stereotypes, besides encouraging young gypsies to drop out of school. Education, indeed, is a controversy in itself. Some families prefer to take their children out of school after six or seven years, not wanting them to lose their gypsy distinctiveness. And, at least in private, these distinctions are still strong: not only a different language, but arranged marriages and strict laws of purity.
[/QUOTE]
Emphasis added. Limiting a US kid’s education to 6-7 years is appalling. Like I said though, it’s a very diverse group and I understand that many are fully assimilated (eg? Bill Clinton apparently had some gypsy ancestors). Not that they necessarily have to be. And note that the paragraph indicated that plenty of Roma are pro-education.
An interesting situation especially since, “Americans in general still have trouble thinking of a gypsy as a member of an ethnic group, rather than a stock character in a film set in Transylvania,” according to the article.
actually,where I live(the south of the Netherlands) the norm is a triple cheek kiss between men and women, or woman and men in all non business encounters.
a few years ago a scientist started a website were people who were uncomfortable with the intimacy of kissing, they could order button where they could specify how many kisses they found acceptable; three(as is normal where I live), two (as is normal is the rest of the land), one or a button with “I prefer to shake hands”
Ah, yes, that’s definitely terrible. It’s one thing to avoid institutionalized bigotry and terrible schools because they constitute a constant assault on children; it’s quite another to avoid education because you want to maintain cultural purity.
If he’s heard so much about me, he would know I don’t touch flesh with men I am not married to (that’s just one of those things that anybody who has known me for more than five minutes could have told him); therefore, any gesture to that effect is at the very least a deliberate insult. I would probably tell him to go get fucked and walk away. If he deliberately blocked my path at that point he might be going down the stairwell.
The idea that Roma avoid education is largely a myth. Poor people often avoid education because in the United States at least, education beyond high school costs and it’s often of more immediate necessity for their young people to go to work to help support the family. I am Roma. I have a master’s degree in library science. My mother-in-law is a nurse midwife. My husband is an engineer. And while his father does not have a formal higher education degree, he owns a business and has taken numerous courses to aid in that process.
Right – for some socioeconomic levels it’s a vicious-cycle thing: you’re poor and marginalized, you need hands doing labor early to support the family, goodbye education. Or at least hello, inferior educational choices. It would be interesting to see the evidence of systematic abandoning of formal education as a deliberate act of self-segregation – maybe conflated with the custom among some groups like the Amish?
Good heavens, how old are you, and what year was it when you fell asleep? It has been several decades since any man in modern western society could be considered a non-gentleman simply for offering a handshake to a lady instead of waiting for her to offer one to him.