For someone in a culture where shaking hands in greeting is an etiquette norm, extending a hand in a handshake-offering gesture is not “demanding the right to have physical contact with a woman against her express wishes”.
It is perfectly correct for a woman to decline an offered handshake with a polite “I’m sorry, I don’t shake hands”. You don’t have to make universalizing statements about all women in some other unspecified “culture” in order to decline a handshake on your own behalf.
But it is not rude for a man in a culture where handshaking is routinely practiced to offer a woman a handshake. Not only is it not rape, it’s not even impolite.
OH IS IT?! How interesting. So what you’re saying is that just because it’s a very common practice, it’s OK to just assume that nobody finds it offensive and just offer it without checking first. Hmm.
Which body area is most often the object of rape? Hint, it’s the one with vaginas.
I already explained in elaborate detail above why your comparison to rape is wretchedly false. Here’s another:
If a guy were trying to rape you, would you feel justified in using lethal force to get away?
If a guy offered you a handshake, would you feel justified in using lethal force to get away?
Also, I really have to commend you on making this thread be all about your Craziness. It was in danger of being a real discussion of the discrimination faced by Roma folk, and you wouldn’t want that! Kudos.
This all sounds fine, and I don’t see a problem or a conflict with any of it. So me extending a hand upon being introduced, because I’m worried that a woman would be offended if I didn’t (or if I asked first), is completely OK, then, because it’s not a “demand” at all, and she’s free to not meet the handshake or to reply “I don’t shake hands”. So no one’s rights have been violated, and no one needs to be offended- no demand of physical contact occurred (just a gesture of respect, which does not have to be met), no violations of rights or cultural values occurred, and everyone can be content.
It’s actually identical in principle to a cultural norm of a minority group in which men and women are not supposed to look each other in the eye unless they’re married, as compared to the larger culture in which not meeting the gaze of someone you’re talking to is considered disrespectful. In this case, just like in the handshake case, a person of the larger culture is free to behave as appropriate in their culture (as is the person in the smaller culture), and if they happen to lock eyes with a person of the smaller culture, he/she can just say “I’m sorry, we don’t meet gazes in my culture”, and everything is hunky-dory.
This is the problem. If ZPG were a little more humble and listened to what others were saying, she’d be a lot more convincing. Kal does a lot better job talking about the Roma, IMO, because he’s not so insane about how the Roma should interact with mainstream cultures.
From some guys I have encountered, ab-so-fucking-lutely. And that instinct has saved my life more than once.
I am not the person who brought the subject up though it seems to be real favorite with the individuals who want to dismiss the amount of discimination faced by Roma.
Humble meaning less uppity, I suppose. Gentlemen wait for women to extend their hands has been the norm in most non-Roma cultures I have ever encountered. Of course, some men don’t follow this and those men are simply not considered gentlemen.
Extending your hand where other people can see it implies you expect that woman to touch you. Unless you have asked her permission loud enough for witnesses to hear it first, it is an unwanted invitation that should not be extended and you should not be surprised if she considers you a scumbag and acts accordingly.
Cite? Where have I ever said all men are rapists. This may be hard to believe but there are millions of men in the world that respect women and ask their permission before touching them.
I disagree. The fact that the adoption papers were forged and that the woman claimed to have given birth to many children in too short a timespan would trigger for me an automatic concern of abduction. Again, the police may have initially believed there was something foul going on because of racism, but let’s not pretend that there wasn’t sufficient evidence later uncovered that supported the conclusion that something odd was going on. I’m not sure what Greek law states, but if they don’t have the same threshold for preponderence of evidence before they do such an investigation as we do here in the US, then I have no problems with them investigating the parents for whatever reason is legal
If that’s the norm, I challenge you to cite a mainstream etiquette guide for a western country with this provision. Just one.
And if I’d meant “uppity,” I woulda said it. Kal is humble in the way I’m talking about. You’re not. Kal is hardly soft in his criticism of bigotry, though. You could take a lesson.
Here’s someone objecting to a man who refuses to shake hands. Should the observant Jew whose client wanted to shake his hand have murdered her for the attempt? After all, look at the historical relationship between Jews and Gentiles, and see who generally massacres whom. Hint: the killers aren’t the ones with sidelocks.
You are INSANE on this issue. Not because you don’t want to shake hands, that’s fine, but because you put the onus on handshaking on everyone except yourself and are willing to murder people who don’t take that onus on themselves. That makes you INSANE.
You are incorrect about this, as it applies to me. And because I would risk offending more women by not extending a hand upon being introduced (where I live, anyway), I must continue to act as I have so far. I don’t want to be a scumbag, after all, and it’s far more likely that a random woman I’m likely to meet would think I’m a scumbag for not offering a handshake than for offering one.
I guess I’ll have to risk that a very small number of women might think I’m a scumbag for extending a hand, but that’s far better than risking the much large number who would I’m a scumbag for not extending a hand.
I do appreciate your input, though, it definitely helps me craft my minimize-the-number-of-women-who-think-I’m-a-scumbag strategy. And if we ever meet I will know not to extend a hand to you.
Yeah, you retards. There a couple of million men who aren’t going around raping people all day. A whole couple million of them. The other nearly 3 billion are raping scumbags.