Gobear wrote:
That’s not correct. That’s not even close.
:::: wonders if it’s contrary to forum rules to inquire if gobear has self on ignore now ::::
:::: alternatively, wonders if what he had to say on page 2 meant anything to anyone :::
Kirk, I regret “being a voice of reason and moderation” in a way that’s displeasing to you. But it’s been my experience that sometimes you can get someone acting bigoted on the basis of an unreasoned stance on another, positive issue, to think things through and change his attitude, by talking patiently and clearly about the implications of his stance vis-à-vis something that truly matters to him. (Our mutual friend Rob is a good example.)
And, much as I’d like to be someone you respect, my stance that you and gobear are good people who do not deserve the castigation and demonization that have been your lot by those pseudo-Christian bigots whom you revile, nonetheless it’s my job to return good for evil, to show love in exchange for hatred, to bear in mind that my Lord loves Fred Phelps and the SBC President no less than he loves me, you, Guin, and gobear – and that our actions in damning them grieve Him no less than theirs in damning you guys. (And remember that there are some SBC members who are grieved by the gospel of hatred preached by the current leaders, but who believe that the course they are called to is to stay members and fight that from inside, rather than allowing America’s largest Protestant denomination to be eaten alive by weasels gnawing out its liver.)
You know where I stand, Kirk. I wish you’d stand alongside me. But if you feel so much hatred for those who have persecuted you that you cannot, I’ll be grateful for your prayers.
Gobear, I acknowledge that much damage has been done to an enormous number of people, including gay persons, ethnic minorities, liberals, Democrats, people of other faith traditions, and also the cause of Christ.
The present marks the first time since the death of Julian the Apostate when for the general public “Christian” has been a term of condemnation, describing someone whose views are intolerant and hate-filled.
As a Christian who is not intolerant or hate-filled, I’m trying to fix that. Would you kindly refer back to lilairen’s post again, and notice that there are a lot of us, and we are trying to get the message out?
And do you have any suggestions on how to make it clear that the hatemongers don’t speak for us, or for a lot of people, liberal and conservative in their political or religious stance, who despise demagoguery and scapegating?
Apparently gobear also missed the post where I said I was ejected from a church committee for fighting back, so obviously the church I used to go to IS biased against gays and I WOULDN’T STAND FOR IT. I realize it’s happening, and I choose not to be a part of it.
Do I have to wear a t-shirt that says “I cherish gay people” or will you just take my word for it.
**
You actively choose your political party, therefore you are responsible for the reprehensible positions and actions of the party you CHOOSE to associate with unless you are fighting to stop/change them, and can be assumed to be supportive of those actions if you are in the party, but not fighting them.
You can. I am, as an American voter, partially responsible for anything my government does that I support either actively, in my failure to argue against, or inactively.
Yes. I’ve certainly considered it. This nation is increasingly in the hands of rabidly anti-gay religious fanatics. Canada looks very attractive, aside from the absurd tax levels.
No, but “fundamentalist pseudo-Christian” does.
[uote]Your post did not come across as if you were saying “anti-gay christians are anti-gay unless they actively protest” it came across as “all christians are anti-gay unless they actively protest”, which simply isn’t true.
[/quote]
Then allow me to restate it: Any “christian” in any church that is actively anti-gay who does protest or fight thier church’s position and actions on the issue of homosexuality is anti-gay, and just as evil as the leaders who are actively pushing such positions.
Kirk
"Anyone who is not actively fighting the fucking Southern Baptist Convention, and its pals, and their anti-gay agenda is a collaborator, and just as evil as the bigots themselves. "
So will 90% of the world’s Christianity be getting their evil membership cards in the mail? You are saying that if I don’t give a fuck about what you care about then I’m evil? Go shit up a tree.
Just for kicks, I’ll address the OP. Many fundy Christian groups have/had targetted D&D and other role playing games as satan’s tools. It is quite easy to understand why many players of those games decide to accept the adversarial role that the fundies forced on them. “You hate us. Well guess what, we hate you”, it’s the oldest human reaction to an attack.
Actually, yes, if you’re an American and don’t give a fuck about virulent anti-gay bigotry and the actions it entails: physical attacks, denial of certain rights, the rendering of gay people to second-class citizen status, then you are evil. No two ways about it.
Kirk
OOooookay. Well, actually Carnal, it’s sort of a ‘thing’ with us Christians (call us nutty) to care about others and love them unconditionally without judgement so…um…I believe it’s unfair to say 90% of the world’s Christians “don’t give a fuck about what you care about”.
But thanks.
J
My 2 cents
I am a christian, and most of the churches I’ve been in claim that the Bible and God says homosexuality is a sin (or otoh, all sex outsdie of marriage is a sin-which i agree with).
They are wonderful churches who love people and help people (yes, even gay people), so Kirkland, you are wrong, at least fromy my experience in saying these churches are hate cults and not really christian.
Awaiting heat from Kirkland (expected).
I’m not out in Afghanistan killing al Qaeda members, so does that mean I support terrorism? I’m not going around causing trouble for pedophiles, so does that I mean I support pedophilia?
But what I’m trying to say is, what if that was my only exposure or experience with homosexuals? Would that justify me saying that homosexuals for the most part are rude and disrespectful and vulgar etc.
No, it wouldn’t. And it’s not okay for the people in the OP to make generalizations about all Christians, just because some (even if they ARE a large part) are jackasses. Even if that is their only run in with Christians.
What is so hard to understand about this statement: It is wrong to make generalizations about an entire group of people based on the actions of the worst of that group?
I mean, it’s not rocket science here, folks. It’s simply judging each person by their own actions.
:: waits patiently, Godwin’s Law reference handy for the inevitable use of the “So you’re saying we can’t generalize against NAZIS?!?!?!” line. ::
Fenris
I’ve been waiting for that Nazi line to be trotted out for quite a while, Fenris…
I’d also like to add that there are different ways of “fighting”. Some are subtle, some are less subtle. Personally, I’ve seen people more effectively influenced by subtle and slow persuasion than I have with loud, boisterous and emotional “protests”.
Sometimes it’s like a slow drip drip drip drip…you can sometimes change people’s minds or hearts (or your own mind and heart is changed) through a gradual process. Sometimes the process seems slow. But in my opinion it is worth going through because very often it works and it LASTS. Sometimes the more aggressive and (dare I say it?) obnoxious forms of fighting have the opposite effect, or they don’t withstand the test of time. Sometimes they just shut people out, or turn people away. Like some of the attitudes I see here.
Speaking for myself, I am not always aggressive or “in your face” when confronted with homophobic views. I sometimes wait to find an opportunity to gently present an alternative point of view to someone who is just barely receptive to the idea that gay people needn’t be treated like shit. I don’t see any point in being aggressive with these sort of people—all they’ll do is ignore me and shut me out completely. So I take my time, and am careful about what I say. And hope that maybe a little bit of my low-key message seeps through. And sometimes, I see that it has. And I hope that I have planted the seeds of understanding within some of these people.
If that’s not enough for you, if I’m “evil” because that’s my method, I guess that’s too bad. I can live with that. I will still sleep at night, knowing that you consider me “evil”. We all gotta do what we think is best.
I agree with you, vanilla. Frankly, I get pretty tired of hearing anti-Christian hate bigotry. Works both ways. Just because we affirm God’s teaching that this lifestyle is sinful doesn’t in any way makes us hateful nor are churches who preach what God says about it, hate cults. Christians and Christian churches can care about and help gays without approving of their lifestyle for that we cannot do. We can’t say something’s right when it isn’t. That isn’t hate, it’s love to tell someone the truth.
See what I mean. H4E’s version of “love” is to tell me how sinful I am. Wow, I feel so equal now.
Polycarp, my apology was sincere and still stands. Fenrisand Guin, however, chose to ignore it and keep fighting. Am I supposed to not defend myself?
Fight fire with fire. Fight the bigots in the church (which I know you are doing).
This really makes me mad. Show me where I ever said ALL Christians were antigay. A majority, yes, but I never said all, each and every, without exception, and for you all to continue to attribute that to me is infuriating.
GOBEAR –
Listen, I only know the you I see here. You understand that, right? I don’t know your situation at home, I don’t know why you’re unwilling or unable to talk about your pain to the people who apparently actually inflict it. I don’t know what you do or don’t do to fight injustice in your own life. What I know is that on the subject of Christianity, and in the context of this Board (which is the only way I know you at all), you are an anit-Christian bigot – yes, bigot – who choses to encompass every Christian in his hatred and rage rather than, as LIB put it, aiming better. Am I supposed to act like it doesn’t piss me off? It does. Am I supposed to act like I don’t expect someone of your intelligence to “aim better,” and direct his rage at those who actually merit it? Well, I do. And I do not – do NOT – give you a pass on it because you’ve been hurt. Because what you’ve chosen to do with your pain is turn around and inflict it on others. You see yourself as a victim of those who don’t understand what you’re about; who refuse to see you as you truly are; and who insist on taking the very worst of your self-identity and extrapolating from it the conclusion that not only is that what you are, that is all you are. And since you’ve so painfully been on the recieving end of that, what do you do? You turn around and do the EXACT SAME THING to others. And I might give it a pass to someone who’s not as smart, not as sensitive, not as aware, but from you – from you – it’s indefensible. And if that doesn’t indicate the degree of respect in which I hold you, then nothing will.
You don’t know what makes a difference to me. You don’t know what I do, or don’t do, to criticize my own “beloved institution” and to work for justice in it. Let me be very clear: I don’t care if you criticize evangelical, hate-filled Fred Phelps-ians. Heck, I’ll help you paint your sign. Shout it from the rooftops! You will be helping me just as I am helping you, because you will assist me in reclaiming my faith in the name of love and tolerance, and refuting bigotry and hate. The problem is that you can’t seem to limit your criticisms to those who deserve it. You piss all over Christianity – all of it – all over religion – all of it – and you make no attempt to differentiate between those who deserve your rage and those who do not. That’s the problem. And when it’s pointed out to you, you construe our position as saying “If we moderate Christians are doing it, then it must not be happening,” which is such a glaring example of intellectual dishonesty on your part as to piss me off all over again.
Do you truly see no alternative between firing your scatter-shot cannon in our general direction, and who gives a shit who’s actually hit, and sitting mum in the corner? Surely a man as smart as you knows perfectly well those are not your only choices.
God, you are so full of crap. I never had a problem with you – NEVER – until you decided about a year ago that become the Biggest Asshole On The Board On The Subject Of Christianity. If I have talked to you with distaste, it has been since that time and you know why? Because I find your posts on this subject to be distasteful in the extreme. Offensive, in fact. As far as I was aware, our limited exchanges before that time were perfectly cordial, as I would expect them to be since we actually agree on a wide range of subjects. Maybe you have different recollections, I don’t know. But I do know that I have not been nursing every missed kind word you could have sent my way but didn’t, or every time you spoke to me with what I perceived to be a lack of respect. I don’t keep those kind of records. I don’t have that kind of time.
But in the here and now, with the new and IMO unimproved GOBEAR – well, I am not skilled enough to pretend you haven’t offended me when you have, even if I could think of a reason to want to do so. So maybe you can explain to me why you would expect kindness from a person you repeatedly and intentionally offend?
If you’re serious, then stop attacking the entire religion of Christianity when what you can in justice do is attack conservative Christianity. If you don’t want to hurt me, then stop acting like there’s no difference between me – and GUIN and POLY and JAR a host of others – and your unaccepting, born-again sister. And if instead of practicing a little discernment in this regard, you choose to “put a cork in it” entirely and be silent in the face of injustice, then don’t you dare blame me, or us, for your decision or your silence.
Oh, and for what it’s worth? The people who get to know the “gentle Jodi” are those who are not overtly hostile about something that is extremely important to me – is, in fact a key part of how I define myself and my life. I rarely drop my defenses in the presence of a person I think is going to stick a knife between my ribs, and I frankly think it’s unreasonable for you to expect that I would. I would like to be your friend, I really would; I think despite the fact that you’re being an east coast gay man and I’m a west coast straight woman, we have quite a lot in common. But I am a Christian. I am a Christian. Re-read your posts on religion to date – any of them, all of them – and then come back and tell me how I can even try to be your friend.
His4ever, you’re NOT fucking helping, all right? We’re trying to get rid of the stereotype of anti-gay Christians.
And you know what you can do with that martyr act of your’s.
Get bent.
Gobear, I wasn’t trying to attack, simply to disagree with what I percived as part of your argument. Since I obviously came across the wrong way, I apologize and will bow out of the thread.
Fenris
Ladies and gentlemen, may I present His4Ever, living breathing proof that ignornace still walks the earth. Completely impervious to logic, reason, common sense, or compassion, H4E continues on her merry way, totally oblivious to the consequences of her actions. Mercy? Understanding? They mean nothing to her, in her quest to get her misinterpretation of scripture out into the world, the better to make other people just as ignorant as she is.
Let us marvel at the spectacle she creates, because before long, such idiocy is going to be departed from the earth altogether. Thank God.
Jarbabyj-"Well, actually Carnal, it’s sort of a ‘thing’ with us Christians (call us nutty) to care about others and love them unconditionally without judgement so…um…I believe it’s unfair to say 90% of the world’s Christians “don’t give a fuck about what you care about”.
That’s a “thing” with humans. If you check you will see those are two different sentences. I was talking off the top of my head but the 90% figure was a guesstimate on the number of christians not actively fighting homophobia. I don’t give a fuck about what southern baptist preachers say.
Thanks for what? Or is that your christian snideness “thing” coming through?
The only thing I’d be comfortable saying a majority of Christians hold as a position is"That Jesus guy, he said some pretty useful stuff, huh?"
I have no idea if a majority of Christians are “pro-gay”, or “anti-gay” or “why are you trying to claim that this whole gay thing is relevant to my faith at all?” Personally, the ones I’ve met have either been “pro-gay” or “why-do-you-think-this-is-a-religious-matter-anyway”.
So repeated assertions that the majority of Christians are “anti-gay” just make me wonder about regional distributions and invisible majorities, not render me convinced that the biased sample of my life is less valid than the biased sample of someone else’s life.