"Fucking Christians"

[Siege]

Congratulations, gobear and Kirkland, and yes, so help me, His4Ever! (Did you ever think you’d see those 3 names in one sentence? You’ve got me thinking maybe my fight isn’t worth it. Part of it’s because I’m tired, it’s 6 am, and I’ve just had a sleepless night after rushing home from a meeting driving 60 mph toward what I was told were tornados moving toward me at 60 mph. [Bogart voice]“I was misinformed.”[/Bogart voice]

The meeting I was at was the one I mentioned back on page 2, the one where I talked with my church’s youth group about the effects of bullying and predjudice to junior high school kids. I told them about both explicit and implicit violence and about not being able to walk down a hallway without being insulted, about winding up considering myself a piece of worthless scum. I opened a few eyes and changed a few minds, I think, among the girls as well as the boys. I pulled out all the stops, in part because during the dinner before the meeting one of the girls made fun of the boys.

I’m not doing this to brag. I’m doing this because, having come to my computer and been foolish enough to open this thread the responses I’ve read from the three of you make me just want to throw up my hands and give up.

Kirkland, you said:

Then allow me to restate it: Any “christian” in any church that is actively anti-gay who does protest or fight thier church’s position and actions on the issue of homosexuality is anti-gay, and just as evil as the leaders who are actively pushing such positions.

There are anti-gay leaders within the Episcopal church, much as I regret it. Should Polycarp and I then abandon our efforts to change those attitudes and do you call us evil?

gobear, your comments on the last page touched me more than I can say. However, later you said:

I would like these “people of conscience” to acknowledge that great harm has been done to many people, including gay people. But the response so far has been, “Well, I’M not doing it, therefore it isn’t happening, and how DARE you even criticize any aspect of Christianity, you hateful, intolerant anti-Christian bigot, you”.

I acknowledge it. Have you ever heard me deny it? Which is why I’m working so very hard to change it, even if it means saying publicly things I’d only told my therapist and a few greatly trusted friends. I’m not gay, but for all the abuse I got, I may as well have been, and I will not stand for any insults in my presence as one preteen found out. I’m not denying your right to criticize any aspect of Christianity. The Lord knows I spend enough time criticizing Christians myself, so I’d better not deny your right. My question for you is should I then give up on Christianity because of the actions of people within my church?

His4Ever, you and I have corresponded privately as well as in exchanges on this Board. In those exchanges, I’m pretty sure I’ve told you part of my ministry, part of my calling is to try to get people to stop hating Christianity. There are people out there including kirkland, gobear and others who have good reason to. You say your calling is to speak the truth. It is also true and said by Christ, Himself, that we must love our neighbors as ourselves. You said:

we affirm God’s teaching that this lifestyle is sinful

To quote an old punchline, “What you mean ‘we’, kemosabe?” Also, how does coming into a thread where some of us are trying affirm the positive, grace-filled aspects of Christianity and calling people sinners help Christianity? You’ve told me, when pressed, that people don’t have to agree with you to be Christians. Your words don’t show that. Calling people sinful is intolerant. It hurts, it wounds, and in my downright arrogant opinion, it damages the message Christ has told us to spread! You see, by singling out one group of people in particular as sinful, you are giving people a reason to treat them differently, to be less accepting of them. We are all sinful by dint of being human. In otherwords, heterosexuals are sinful too. Even celibates are sinful. The only human being in history who wasn’t sinful was a certain fellow back in the Middle East a couple of thousand years ago, and rumour has it that he was only half-human. Do me a favor. Before you post in a thread, ask yourself two questions: “Will this do harm?” as well as “Will this glorify God?” If the answer to the first is yet, stay out of it. In this thread and others you have done harm. Christ, you will recall, healed.

Excuse me, everyone, like I said, I’m tired, and I’ve got a living room full of patio furniture thanks to what turned out to be a false alarm. Last night, I had a chance to right the intolerance and the mockery I consider to be one of the greatest wrongs in the world. This morning, I was foolish enough to open a thread which looks to have intolerance coming from both sides. It makes me wonder if there’s anything Polycarp, Jarbabyj, countless, nameless others and I can do to change it. I suppose I’ll keep trying, though. There are times when I can be incredibly stupid and stubborn.

CJ

[Siege]

By the way, His4Ever, next time you think about saying someone has a “sinful lifestyle”, I suggest you re-read John 4:5-30, the story about the woman at the well. She was leading what respectable considered a “sinful lifestyle.” To put it bluntly, she was a slut, and, to make matters worse, a Samaritan. Christ did not call her sinful, although He gave her a chance to acknowledge her sin in an indirect manner. Instead, He offered her, “an inner spring, always welling up for eternal life.” When she told him she knew the Messiah was coming, He said to her, “I am he.” Nowhere in that passage did He condemn her. In fact, the only people I remember Him condemning are the sellers in the Temple, who were considered respectable. Care to tell me how you reconcile your actions with His?

CJ

[Liberal]

Gobear wrote:

See what I mean. H4E’s version of “love” is to tell me how sinful I am. Wow, I feel so equal now.

And well you should. His4Ever is equally sinful. And she knows (or should know) that.

[vanilla]

Lib, I thought His4Ever does know that.
She has stated she is sinful too.
We all are.
But we are not forgiven til we have asked Jesus to forgive us.

Yes?

[tiny_ham]

*Originally posted by CarnalK *
**That’s a “thing” with humans. If you check you will see those are two different sentences. I was talking off the top of my head but the 90% figure was a guesstimate on the number of christians not actively fighting homophobia. I don’t give a fuck about what southern baptist preachers say.

Thanks for what? Or is that your christian snideness “thing” coming through? **

Well, I think I’ll apologize then for misunderstanding your post, although I still don’t completely get what you’re saying. You were responding to a gay man and you said “I don’t give a fuck about what you care about”, and there was no mention of southern baptist preachers in YOUR post, just the post you quoted. However, if I don’t understand, I think I should just keep my mouth shut. A lesson we all can learn in this thread. I apologize.

[Liberal]

*Originally posted by vanilla *
**Lib, I thought His4Ever does know that.
She has stated she is sinful too.
We all are.
But we are not forgiven til we have asked Jesus to forgive us.

Yes? **

No. Did the adultress ask for forgiveness?

[CRorex]

*Originally posted by grienspace *
**Are anti-gay ads permitted in America ? **

Religion and politics in the US are kinda a difficult subject.
Many politicians, only manage to stay in power by catering to the political stances held by their constituency, regardless of how those political stances violate the wording/spirit of the bill of rights.

Lets just go back and look at the whole removing “under god” from the pledge.

Anyhoo, in my opinion, until I see a person who claims to be religious stand up and denounce their faith for some of their more backwards political stances I’m going to think you’re supporting it.

When I see you getting attacking for standing up for your friend’s and strangers right to live how they please as long as they aren’t hurting someone else, THEN I’ll believe you.

So what if you got thrown off your church committe. Who, except for the rest of the committee, and the church memebers who heard about what happened know of your stand?

[gobear]

And well you should. His4Ever is equally sinful. And she knows (or should know) that.

But apparently in His4Ever’s universe, some sins are more sinful than others (assuming I shared your belief that homosexual love is inferior or morally wrong, which I most emphatically do NOT!). One never hears bH4E rail against social evils, like endemic poverty among the urban underclass; corporate greed that destroys workers’ retirement accounts and life savings; racial discrimination that blights whole generations–all that gets nary a mention, but two guys sharing love–that there is EEEE-vul! It really makes me wonder about her moral compass and what sort of God she worships.

My question for you is should I then give up on Christianity because of the actions of people within my church?

No, of course not. I, unlike Kirkland, am not an “us vs. them” absolutist, and I know that there are good, compassionate Christians out there. I have acknowledged that in several threads. I have even defended Christianity in some threads, so calling me an anti-Christian bigot is inaccurate. What I am is a critic, perhaps an excessively strong one, of American Christianity. AS I posted in this thread:

The work of the Christian is to love God with all her heart, soul, and mind, and to love her neighbor as herself–period. Anything else is just details best left to the Almighty.

If the Church at large did that, I would have no problem with it, and I’d even keep my opinions of the mythological origins of Christianity to myself.

But my views of the Christian church are very similar to my views of the Republican party: that despite the presence of gay-friendly individuals among the membership, the leadership and its policies are largely inimical to my interests.

Take, for example, the Catholic church. Guin claims that she is gay-friendly and working for gay-friendly policies in the church. but she is just a layperson. The Pope, who sets official policy, has spoken out strongly against gay people. The US Catholic bishops, have attempted to pin the recent pedophile scandals on gay priests, linking pedophilia to homosexuality. This makes me furious. Am I supposed NOT to say “The Catholic church says gay people are pedophiles” so as not to offend Guin? She, along with many others may disagree with the policies, but to modify the statement to “Some Catholics link pedophilia to homosexuality” just isn’t honest in that context. Because Rudy Guliani is a gay-friendly Republican does not mean that the policies and platform of the GOP overall, as set by Trent Lott and Tom DeLay, are gay-friendly.

I really, sincerely, am trying not to offend people. But at the same time, to pretend that anti-gay sentiments are limited only to oddballs like Fred Phelps just isn’t accurate. Anti-gay beliefs are prevalent in American church-going culture; the number of gay-friendly churches is significantly less than the number of gay-hostile churches. Now, get this through your heads–that is not the same as saying “all Christians are anti-gay,” which I have never said! The next person who accuses me of that is going to get an earful.

CJHoworth wrote:

There are anti-gay leaders within the Episcopal church, much as I regret it.

That’s what I want you guys to acknowledge. Not to pretend that anti-gay bias is the work of just a few individuals in a largely gay-friendly institution. Dang it, I have a right to be angry, not only with my sister and my boyfriend’s grandparents, but with the people who taught them their beliefs and the church officials who sanction them.
Jodi wrote:

If you’re serious, then stop attacking the entire religion of Christianity when what you can in justice do is attack conservative Christianity. If you don’t want to hurt me, then stop acting like there’s no difference between me – and GUIN and POLY and JAR a host of others – and your unaccepting, born-again sister.

More and more, this is sounding like Abraham bargaining with God, to see how many righteous people must be in Sodom and Gomorrah for those cities to be spared God’s wrath, or in this case, what proportion of American Christians must be gay-friendly to spare them my wrath(Disclaimer: I am NOT equating myself with God, nor Christians with the inhabitants of the Cities on the Plain, got it?) If I criticize American Christianity, I get condemned for being a bigot. But the same thing happens if I limit my comments to “conservative Christians” because many posters will chime in to say, “I’m a conservative Christian and that doesn’t apply to me,” or even “fundamentalists” because Duck Duck Goose will get on me. (We had a lengthy discussion on the nature of Christian fundamentalism and the beliefs that could be fairly be ascribed to it.) It seems safest to limit criticism to safe targets like Fred Phelps or Jack Chick.

Again, I am sorry for causing such outrage and offending people with my comments.

[Siege]

*Originally posted by CrorexWhen I see you getting attacking for standing up for your friend’s and strangers right to live how they please as long as they aren’t hurting someone else, THEN I’ll believe you.

I can’t speak for grienspace, but I started back about 30 years ago, when I was still in grade school for a friend who was “different” (mildly handicapped). If you want evidence, I can give you e-mail addresses. Sorry, I’m afraid the times I was beat up and put down weren’t caught on Super 8. Oh yes, I can also point you to a website where you can see my real name listed on the Diocesan Commision on Racism.

What more can us moderate Christians do? I’ve been trying to fight the hatred which broke my friend and nearly killed me, but right now, looking at this thread, it’s winning. I’m sorry it’s not enough just as I’m sorry I wasn’t strong enough to spare my friend a nervous breakdown from the continuous insults.

Oh, and by the way, vanilla, neither the woman at the well nor the woman caught in adultery asked for forgiveness, but the former was the first person Christ revealed himself to as the Messiah.

CJ

[tiny_ham]

Anyhoo, in my opinion,until I see a person who claims to be religious stand up and denounce their faith for some of their more backwards political stances I’m going to think you’re supporting it.

(boling mine)

So according to CRorex we DO have to give up being Christian, which would mean denouncing a faith that I follow truly, engaging in love, charity, compassion, loyalty.

And because my good works aren’t on a grand scale (i.e., being thrown off a committee), they aren’t good enough. Interesting. I could have taken the easy way out, Rorex, knowing that nobody knew I was on the committee, and nobody would find out if I just kept my mouth shut. BUT BECAUSE I FEEL STRONGLY about certain issues, I COULD NOT KEEP QUIET.

Think GLOBALLY, act locally. CHANGE BEGINS WITH ME.

I acknowledge there is an anti-gay bias in CERTAIN churches and AMONG CERTAIN leaders, but I will not denounce the teachings of Jesus Christ because of it.

[gobear]

I acknowledge there is an anti-gay bias in CERTAIN churches and AMONG CERTAIN leaders, but I will not denounce the teachings of Jesus Christ because of it.

Just to be clear, that was CRorex, not me. In no way do I want anybody to denounce the teachings of Jesus Christ; instead, I would like people to live up to them. Bear in mind, though, that the teachings of the church and the teachings of Jesus are not necessarily identical.

[tiny_ham]

And as a follower of Jesus Christ, I am a Christian. That’s who we are discussing, correct?

Basically, I’m trying to get you to tell me that you accept me as a good Christian, because you’ve done it to everyone else in this thread so far
And yes, I do know that was CRorex.

[gobear]

Basically, I’m trying to get you to tell me that you accept me as a good Christian, because you’ve done it to everyone else in this thread so far.

You know I consider you a good Christian, although my opinion means nothing; God’s opinion is the only one that has relevance (Not that I am in any way admitting the existence of a Supreme Being).

[tiny_ham]

whew.
:: marks of gobear in her book of for and against ::

[Kirkland1244]

*Originally posted by cjhoworth *
** There are anti-gay leaders within the Episcopal church, much as I regret it. Should Polycarp and I then abandon our efforts to change those attitudes and do you call us evil? **

Sorry, my bad. Typo on my part, allow me to restate – I had had like no sleep before I posted previously, so here’s what I MEANT to say:

Then allow me to restate it: Any “christian” in any church that is NOT actively anti-gay who does protest or fight thier church’s position and actions on the issue of homosexuality is anti-gay, and just as evil as the leaders who are actively pushing such positions.

I apologize for the confusion. My bad.

Kirk

[Kirkland1244]

AAAAAAARGH! I did it again. Dammit all. I would give my right arm for a blasted “Edit” funciton on this stupid board. Allow me to re-restate:

*Any “christian” in any church that is actively anti-gay who does NOT protest or fight thier church’s position and actions on the issue of homosexuality is anti-gay, and just as evil as the leaders who are actively pushing such positions. *

I negatived the wrong verb in my previous attempt to restate. Sheesh, that’s embarrasing.

[Liberal]

Gobear wrote:

Bear in mind, though, that the teachings of the church and the teachings of Jesus are not necessarily identical.

That much is certain.

[Siege]

Originally posted by Kirkland1244I had had like no sleep before I posted previously

That makes two of us then, and it’s now obvious to me that Wellbutrin isn’t going to work either. Kirkland, what can I say? We’re both in an awful position in that we face the reality that an institution that can do so much good continues to do so much harm. I’ve at least got the questionable advantage in that it’s not directed at me, just at one of my oldest friends.

For what it’s worth, there are about a dozen kids in one corner of southwest Pennsylvania who learned last night that hate can kill and that it nearly killed someone they know. If that lesson will stick with them, then maybe there’ll be a few more schools where making fun of someone whether they’re homosexual or different in any other way is not acceptable. It’s not much, but it’s all I can do this week, and I do plan on continuing.

Peace,
CJ

[Guinastasia]

gobear, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m not exactly a practicing, or very active Catholic. Yes, the Catholic church stance on homosexuality sucks. I agree with you on that.

[vanilla]

You know, I’d never thought of that before.

The woman caught in adultery didn’t ask for forgiveness, but she got it.
Of course, she was also told not to sin any more.

Libertarian and cj, you guys are making me think.

BTW, me and my son are not members of a church, that is-an official church.
We are christians, so belong to THE church; the church of all people who are christians, no matter what denomination.

Most of the churches we’ve been to we liked because of contemporary worship.
Those are the ones that people here would call “fundie”; meaning homosexuality is a sin.

I don’t know why those go together, but…

So…if that woman caught in adultery was forgiven by Jesus himself , her not having to do anything for it, are you implying we are all saved without having to do anything?