While this sounds like a good idea on the surface, it doesn’t allow any possibility that I might find some evidence about it in the future. You guys did ask for evidence to support my beliefs.
Hey, you aren’t comparing me to a pedophile, are you?
Offer me concrete evidence to support your belief that homosexual marriage would contribute to any specific social harm, and I will consider your evidence. That’s the difference between us: you’ve specifically said:
Which is the very opposite of being open-minded.
My mind is open to being changed, provided convincing evidence. You just said yours wasn’t.
You’re a bigot. Look it up.
grienspace, bigots should be allowed to continue opening threads that expose their bigotry; who says otherwise? But when an antisemite comes in explaining why Jews should accept the blame for their persecution, they should get verbally ripped apart for it; likewise for homophobes who come in declaring that homosexuals should have their loves discouraged by law.
prisoner’s heart is no more in the right place than that of a person who blames Jews for their persecution. That’s what he should be thinking about. He should be meditating on his sin, not on how he dresses his sin up.
Daniel
Would somebody be so kind as to answer the above quote in my behalf. I am so enraged right now that if I undertake to do so, I know I will say things that I will hate myself for when I calm down.
You read it as him implying you’re the Devil, too? I wasn’t sure if I was reading too much into it.
I remember the first time a fundy street-preacher told me the Devil was speaking through me. I attribute a good half-decade of despising Christianity to that comment and its follow-ups; it took me a really long time to realize that that sonofabitch didn’t represent all Christians, that some were really good people with beautiful beliefs and principles. Seems to me the Devil could glorify himself by pretending to speak for God, and that maybe prisoner needs to consider who’s speaking through him, literally or metaphorically.
Daniel
This statement is cruel and hurtful to me.
This action is cruel and hurtful to me.
This statement is cruel and hurtful to me.
This statement is cruel and hurtful to me.
This statement is cruel and hurtful to me.
This statement is cruel and hurtful to me.
This statement is cruel and hurtful to me.
That’s just from the first two pages of that thread. I believe you when you say that you do not intend to be cruel or hurtful. Please believe me when I tell you that your intent does not match your results.
It’s not the homophobia that bothers me so much (though it does bother me) as the coyness and obtuseness. I mean with abortion there is an argument that the fetus is a human being and has or should have rights. This is a coherent, if debatable argument. But with SSM, people like prisoner and VanityFair simply refuse to give any argument other than that they “feel” it’s wrong. When pressed by Spectrum they simply repeat their assertions and get testy when people point out that assertions ≠ arguments. Eventually they start sneering at the “liberal” and “worldly” members of the SDMB.
I mean, I could start a thread stating that rabbits are to blame for all of modern society’s ills, including the high divorce rate and columbine. Just look at them, with their beady little eyes and twitching noses! I could find just as much evidence (i.e. none) for this hypothesis as prisoner and others have for their views on SSM.
Frankly I appreciate Spectrum’s outrage, even though I’m not gay. I’m getting fed up with the attitude that we have to meet bigots and fools half way.
First of all, please tell me you’re not comparing my brother-in-spirit and one of the saintliest people to grace this board to the Devil. You see, one of my greatest temptations is wrath. I very seldom lose my temper, but, when I do so, it’s rather spectacular. I believe Polycarp once compared it to an erupting volcano, and he was trying to calm me down at the time.
Second, insulting people goes directly against my Christian beliefs in that it violates the Commandment Christ gave us, the one about loving our neighbors as ourselves. Nevertheless, I’m going to call you something I would find highly insulting if it were directed at me. You, sir or madam, are a coward. I presented several concrete arguments countering yours in the thread spectrum linked to, and you ignored them. As far as I’m concerned, you can counter them, or at least acknowledge them, or go away.
Clearly, you have no idea what it’s like to be made to feel worthless, useless, hopeless and beyond all redemption simply because of who you are. That’s a good thing, and I’m glad you don’t. However, when you blame all the ills of society on one aspect of a group of people’s lives as you certainly appeared to do in Great Debates, you are doing just that to those people. Thanks to the attitudes of people like you, a young man in my city has been driven to the point of suicide after 11 years of battling his sexuality. Maybe, if I’m lucky and God is successful at opening his heart and his ears, I’ll be able to help him. I’m afraid I won’t be in time or be able to do enough. I’ve been suicidal. I’ve been at the point where the world and my friends would only be enhanced by my leaving it. I would not wish that fate on anyone and I have vowed to Christ, Himself, that I will help others at that point.
In about 24 hours, I’ll be in the arms of a man I love dearly. Because I’m a woman and we’re both single adults, no one will condemn that and quite a few people will cheer that. If I’d written “I’ll be in the arms of a woman I love dearly”, knowing that I am a woman, you would condemn me as immoral and harmful to society without knowing anything else about who I am.
In Great Debates, I told you about the kid who pulled a knife on me when I was a teenager, over 20 years ago, and about the friend who stood by me. Can you honestly expect me to believe that my friend is more sinful and more harmful to society than the kid who pointed a knife at a scared, lonely teenaged girl? If you can, I leave you to your beliefs. Ethically, I can do no more, and, if you turned up at my doorstep this evening in need of food and shelter, I’d give it to you out of Christian obligation. I will not, however, choose to associate with you. I know better people among the Wiccans.
With very little respect at all,
CJ
You have a theory?
Daniel
You can’t live your life based on what others think, do, or say. You have shown a dangerous slide towards hatred in this post, honestly to lay hate to the entire Christian religion is a bad thing. Even to hate the fundamentalist’s in question is a bad thing, because your hatred doesn’t do a damn bit of harm to them and is only bad for you.
It’s hard to think or rationalize that way when confronted with people that refuse to listen and refuse to understand. But not only is that the weight that is on anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ, it is on anyone who wants to live life happily and without too much worry about things that cannot be changed.
The first people to jump to mind are Polycarp, defender of all things good and Christian, and Bricker, whose opinion on this very matter has shown considerable evolution in the past year. That’s just with two or three second of thought put into my choices.
How brilliantly obtuse; and may I also praise you on your intellectual dishonesty?
[Dale Gribble] You’re asking if I have theories ? [/Dale Gribble]
I must say though spectrum you have to temper your blows. I become rankled when people start casting nets around the Republican party, when they start saying the views of selected Bush supporters are equivalent to the views of the President himself, and to the people that run this nation.
Furthermore I don’t like to see groups like the Baptists generalized about, sweeping generalizations have no place in American politics or American religion, save for certain rhetorical cases where the object being generalized isn’t of central importance to the argument.
I’m Catholic, I’ve been told by the nicest Baptist woman you’ll ever meet, point blank to my face, that I’m going to hell because I don’t worship God but rather the Pope in Rome.
As I said, she was a very nice woman. But she was also very wrong, so I wish her no ill will.
But growing up and living in the American South I’ve met a lot of Baptists, I’ve met a lot of people from denominations commonly labelled “fundamentalists.” And believe it or not all Baptists do not come from the same cloth. Many are very tolerant of others, many would never think to even mention their religion outside of their churches or their homes because they’d consider it impolite. Some of the most caring and giving people I’ve ever had the pleasure to call neighbors were Southern protestants. And unless they purposefully hid their world views from me (and I don’t see why they would) they were nothing like the oft demonized “fundie” that in my experience exist in small but very vocal and influential enclaves of certain specific branches of certain denominations (for example American Baptists are nothing like Southern Baptists.)
Ok. Wish granted. I apologize if my use of the word devil could be interpreted to compare ANYONE to him. I was merely stating that the Devil can use just about anything to fight God, even a Christian such as myself and spectrum.
I ignored them because I should really not be on the computer right now. But I don’t want people going on thinking that I’m evil or a pharisee. I will respond, but in time. Formulating a rational argument takes time.
Ya know, I’m new here. Maybe I shouldn’t be rushing in where angels fear and all that.
But --and I keep saying that to myself with each post from Vanity Fare andPrisoner --but, but, but…surely they can see this point or that one. To us it is obvious. Love thy neighbor as thyself–what could be simpler?
But…(there I go again).
But seriously, the only explanation that I can come up with to explain such a remark as the one up top here, is that Prisoner suffers from a mental astigmatism. IOW, a lack of self-knowledge. A blind spot, if you will.
He TRULY does not see the disconnect between stating that SSM is one of the bits of slippery slope to Sodom (oops, very bad pun) and Gomorrah, despite NO evidence to back this notion, NO data that supports the idea that SSM is bad for kids in those families etc, and that he is not closed minded.
The dichotomy does not exist for him. I find this astounding. Could it be that he does no critical thinking? I am not trying to flame (even here) but really–can he analyze information in a coherent fashion?
i hesitate to say this so flippantly, but I think that Priosnelr can be sure that God is not using him as a tool of glory at this point.
The Republican party is a party of hatred and bigotry. It is a party of economic exploitation of America’s workers. It is the party of raping the environment. And it is very much the party of gay-bashing and gay hating. I have about as much respect for the Republican Party and its members as I do for NAMBLA.
Since you’re not the one whose way of life – no, very life – is on the line here, allow me to offer you a hearty “go fuck yourself.”
You should. She’s a filthy, Catholic hating bigot of the first order, and deserves to be treated as such.
Perhaps I’ll have my boyfriend sign on to this board, and he can tell you all about how loving and caring a Southern Baptist family can be.
I would prefer you not refer to me in anyway as being similar to you. If being a Christian means being associated with you, then I reject the label, if not the religion (the real Christian religion, not your perverted version).
Then stop being an evil pharisee.
Not when your argument is easily presented and unquestionably rational. You and your ilk the only ones here having a hard time coming up with rational support for your views.
Way to bite a hand held out in aid, spectrum.
Note that I completely agree with you in regards to Prisoner and in general. But you really are too quick to jump from the general to the specific with these things. Not ALL Republicans are homophobic, misogynistic, nature-raping thugs. Not ALL Southern Baptists are horrible, nasty, hateful pseudo-Christians. Yes, some, even most, may be. But you can’t just go around verbally whacking the entire collection of them and expect to be taken seriously.
Breathe deep, calm down, debate rationally. I’m getting way too familiar a sense because this is exactly the conversation I had with Kirkland just before he flamed out…
Excellent point. I could point to a couple of gay Republican mayors in the Northeast. Granted, the Neanderthal wing of the party appears to have the elephant by its balls at the moment, but the G.O.P. once stood for something worthwhile, and may do so again. And I’ll point you to a thread in which our senior resident Archmaia of Evil Sauron (the senior one, who has sired several Minions, as opposed to the wonderful but younger and unmarried WeRSauron) and his wife, the lovely Aries28, in which the independence and intellectual freedom of Southern Baptists (meaning the 15 million people belonging to churches affiliated with the SBC, not Paige Patterson’s pet psychophantic purveyors of Pharisaic puke) was discussed, and they began work to rid their local church of anti-gay attitudes.
Most people are decent and caring, once they see past the stereotypes and the “stranger … different … must defend near and dear” reactions to find the decent person who dwells within. In that truism lies our hope.
Please. Where in the Bible does being Christian equate to being hateful and angry, especially to each other? We are brothers in Christ spectrum, like it or not. I love you as I do everybody. Do you? Who is your example for your life? Is Christ? What did he say while he was being tortured? “Please forgive them father. They know not what they do.”