Israel does bear some responsibility for the situation, in my opinion. Your response does not answer the question I raised, however.
From abcnews.com regarding the weekend Israeli raid on Gaza City:
*"It was the deepest Israeli penetration into the Palestinian city of 300,000 in more than two years of fighting. The raid came in response to the firing of crude, short-range Qassam rockets at the Israeli town of Sderot in the southern Negev Desert, near Gaza, on Friday.
“The Israelis will pay a heavy price for every drop of blood shed last night,” Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a leader of the Islamic militant group Hamas, told the crowd at the funeral. “Our battle will continue until we uproot this Zionist occupation from our holy land, no matter what the sacrifice.”*
I guess he forgot to talk about the soup kitchens.
Well, Jackmannii, Jordan is extremely fearful about being taken over by Palestinian refugees who make up about half of it’s population. Below are some estimates for the population of the Palestinian diasphora for the end of the year 2001:
Many of those in Jordan Syria and Lebanon live in refugee camps. Israel must bear nearly ALL the responsibilty for their dispossesion as it was their armies which uprooted them.
Seeing that combined attacks by various Arab powers and Palestinians played a major role in this “uprooting” and that continued Arab hostilities have helped ensure the current situation*, I’d say Arab nations bear a considerable amount of responsibility for Palestinian disposession. And the question of why Arab aid sufficient to get the Palestinians out of the camps hasn’t been forthcoming has not been answered, except for the part of your response that deals with Jordanian fears of Palestinian political power.
Sort of a bitter irony there, considering the disingenous nature of calls for an unlimited Palestinian “right of return” to Israel.
*and it looks like Hamas’s actions will help ensure a return to power of Sharon and his bankrupt policies. That’s apparently what they want - more hostilities and more bloodshed.
I’m sorry when, you are invaded it does not give you the right to ethnically cleanse your lands or lands that have been captured of it’s civilian population. The 1948 war was not the start of the conflict between the Arabs and the Jews, the arrival of the zionist colonists heralded this.
Arab countries do give alot of aid to the Palestinians, but they are not the occupiers and do not bear primary responsibilty for the situation.
I don’t know why you think Israel should be able to steal land as it pleases or the Palestinians do not have the right to live in their own country.
In the middle east debate, my allegiences fall 100% with Israel. That said, I see nothing inherently wrong with funding ‘Palestinian causes’. Palestinians need constructive leadership, a working infrastructure, decent schools, businesses, and jobs, all geared toward a life beyond blaming Israel for every societal ill. These things cost money, which they do not seem to be getting from their wealthy sympathizers. As long as funding goes to the Palestinian people I see nothing wrong with it…they are an impoverished, self-destructive group in need of charity. If the funding goes to Hamas and friends, then it is pointless. Contributers may as well go to Gaza and bulldoze Palestinian homes themselves.
I am assuming then, that you believe the Arabs should pay reparations to Israel for their invasions, and that they should also pay reparations to Jewish refugees taken in by Israel?
This is one of the oddest bits in the whole debate - somehow, Israel has managed to absorb hundreds of thousands of Shephardic Jews kicked out of Arab countries (without any sympathy in the form of screams of “ethnic cleansing” from the ROTW, that I am aware of); these refugees, very different culturally from the Ashkenazic Jews who were the majority of early Zionists, do not live in squalid refugee camps - despite nothing in the way of reparations. They are currently Israeli citizens.
Yet, for more than fifty years, the combined Arab countries have been unable to find a way to absorb their Palistinian bretheren.
I truly wonder why. And if reparation payments would make any difference.
I agree that the treatment of Jews in Arab states before and following the creation of Israel was dreadful.
On your other point, if you look at the data on the Palestinian diaspora (quoted above by MC Master of Cermonies), you’ll find that a huge number of refugees have indeed been absorbed into other Arab countries. Regarding the ones that are left, I would imagine that their Arab neighbours wouldn’t be in favour of the current refugees vacating the land to make way for Israeli hegemony in the Occupied Territories.
Furthermore, there were tented towns and villages in Israel in the formative years of the State. Living under a relatively incorrupt and democratic regime would have helped reverse this situation, as would the lack of an occupying army, contiguous land borders, and big handouts from large economies.
The whole Mecca-Cola thing is great business idea, and the fact that the founder is an Arab who wants to see part of the proceeds go to the Palestinians is admirable; hope he enjoys success, and I don’t think this will cause a great deal of concern to the Israelis, one way or another. A clarification of the slogan: ‘Buvez Engage’ (just imagine the acute accent there) means, more likely, “to drink with involvement” (rough translation). Engager is literally to be engaged, in this sense, politically. In slang, ‘engager’ is similar to ‘brancher’, in the meaning of being up-to-date, in the know, and politically aware (pertains more to “engager”). Just to clarify…
cainxinth good point here:
, except for that last bit. Those organizations do provide the listed amenities, but to Palestinians, not “in many Arab states.” All other Arab (or Arab-speaking) states have infrastructures that are capable of providing such to their citizens; the Palestinians, until relatively recently, did not have such a framework in place, and relied on the aid organizations and the countries in which the camps were located for such support.
As for blame, hey, probably better not to go there, as it is pretty heavily laid on many doorsteps: the Brits, the Zionists (the original founders of the modern state of Israel), the Arabs, even the US and the international community all share a portion. The unfortunate fact is that the situation exists, and that it should be dealt with fairly; blame is an albatross that has sunk many a peace deal, on both sides of the fence.
Malthus, any cites to back up your claim of the Sephardic Jews being “kicked out” of Arab countries? You are pretty far off here… Sephardic Jews are those Spanish and Portuguese Jews that were “kicked out” of those countries in 1492; they then settled in many places, with an especially large community in the Netherlands. They still do live in many countries around the world, to include: Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Morocco, Syria and Yemen (to name the Arabic-speaking ones) cite here: http://www.bsz.org/lsephardicjewworld.htm
Many of the Sephardic Jews that are in Israel migrated there; no force or expulsion, but from choice. Now, don’t get me wrong: there has been persecution of Jewish communities in Arabic-speaking countries, most notably since the foundation of Israel in 1948; this should be self-evident, as that creation was considered to be an affront to Arabs and Muslims everywhere at the time. There is a strong “anti-Zionist” movement among Arabs that swelled in ranks on the creation of Israel, and that, in consequence, made life difficult for many Jewish communities. However, it should be pointed out that most of the Sephardic communities that left their homes for Israel went willingly, not forcibly. In short, a very uninformed and ignorant post; might want to try backing it up with some facts.
Believe it or not, you do bring up an important issue: why have the Palestinians in Jordan, Syria, and Egypt continued to live in refugee camps, and not been "absorb"ed into those countries? Although there are reasons, there has been some controversy in the Arab world about this fact, as well; some see the camps as a drain on their own economies, or as eyesores that need to be removed. The Palestinians live in camps due, in many ways, simply to their outlook: that Israel is illegitimate, that the Jews came and stole their land, their houses, their lives, and that they want it back. So why start new lives, buy or build new houses, when they have perfectly good ones sitting “right over there”? If you visit a Palestinian’s home, one thing you can usually see pretty quickly is the deed to the land they own or the house they have, sometimes even the keys to the house they have, placed in a prominent spot. This is so they don’t forget; they don’t forget that the Zionists and their supporters came in and took what they feel to be rightfully theirs. They see the camps as temporary, until the correct order can be restored, and they can get their homes and land back.
Sure, sounds pretty pathetic, right? But try to think about it from their perspective: what if you, an average Joe, out working on the olive farm, had someone pull up at the door one day and say “This is my house now, grab what you can carry and get in that truck…”? And out in the front yard are a couple of people you have never seen before, and some troops, standing there waiting for you to do as you were told. You have been living here all of your life, your kids are small, and they were born here, the olive harvest is pretty good this year, things are looking up… “Move it - get your things in the truck, nothing heavy, only what you can carry.” What would you do?
I am not excusing anything here, nor glossing over the facts; I realize the complicated details, but the average Palestinian that lost their homes and lands did not know about the land deals that had occurred, the agreements that were being made, etc. All they knew was that one day someone came and told them that this place they and their family had been born in was no longer theirs to call home; no time to relocate, to move the family heirlooms out, nothing. No recompense, either: most Palestinians received nothing, as many land transactions had occurred in secret, and the average man on the street never knew what had transpired. Then they are herded into trucks, and transported to hastily set up camps in unfamiliar areas; the Arab countries at the time were not wealthy areas (they were, for the most part, still colonies of either France or Britain, neither of which had a lot of money to spend after the war), and the camps were crudely constructed affairs, meant to house the populations temporarily, while the British governors sorted out the issues and found ways to get the surrounding entities to absorb the Palestinians. The Palestinians didn’t want to be absorbed, however; they wanted (and still want) to keep their identity as a people, not as Jordanian or Lebanese or Egyptian or Syrian, nor, most especially, as Israeli. To this day, Palestinians carry documents that identify them as Palestinians, regardless of where they live. Is it still that hard to “wonder why”?
Would reparations, large influxes of cash, etc. make much of a difference? In the current environment, I’m afraid not; it is necessary for the Palestinians to let go of the past, admit that Israel is not going away, and get on with their lives before any money can really do any long-term good. This requires support and education; Sharon’s policies, like those of the terrorists, will not work, but only serve to continue the violence. For every martyr Sharon kills, more spring up: short of wiping the Palestinians out, his policies will only serve to create more enmity and violence. It is true that the radical Palestinian factions need to be controlled, but the Palestinian authority would need serious help to accomplish this; besides, how long does it take for people to realize that force cannot conquer terrorism? Terrorism is a mindset, an ideology; in the Palestinian case, it is a matter of desperation as well. Think about it: you are a 19 year old male, and you have two brothers and a sister. Your father hasn’t ben able to work, and you and your family go out and barter items for food, as money is so scarce. You can’t go to school, you can’t get a job; many of your friends have been arrested, shot, or at the least detained for long periods of time. Your older brother, who sees his family rotting, his father falling apart because he can’t take care of or feed his children and can’t pay for the house they are in, has had enough. He doesn’t see Arafat doing anything, the Hamas group has been talking and talking down at the square, anything has to be better than this, he thinks. He talks to the Hamas people, they tell him about a plan in which he can really strike back at the “bastards”; he sees the sacrifice for his father, his mother, his brothers and sisters; as such, your older brother is convinced that it is the only way. He may die, but someone has to strike out, make a statement, not just sit here and rot. So he says his prayers, straps explosives to himself, and is told by the Hamas people that his family will be taken care of, Allah will smile upon him and them, etc. Boom: several innocent Israelis and a soldier or two dead, your brother in pieces among the carnage. Two days later, while you are asking yourself why, grieving for your brother, trying to make sense of it all, the Israelis come and take your other brother, drag you, your sister, your mother and father out of your house, and bulldoze it in front of your eyes?
You tell me - what would you do?
Not an excuse, but real life for many of these people. Are there solutions? Yes, but the Israelis as well as the Palestinians, need to accept reality: the Palestinians aren’t going to go away, either, and co-existence is really the only option. Anyone who says 100% Israel or 100% Palestine is a fool, and an ignorant one at that; it took many to create this problem, and will take many to solve it.
Everyone seems to forget one important detail. Does Mecca Cola taste good? 10 percent of piss poor sales isnt going to help the palestineans. Its a marketing tool with a political twist and as long as the proceeds doesnt end up in Terrorist hands I am all for it. I’d even try one just to see how good it is. If they came out with Judah Juice, Id try it. I’d drink it because it tasted good not because it helped a particular party or affiliation. If I was really passionate about helping the palestineans, why shouldnt I just send 100 percent of my money to help them instead of buying a product and letting the palestineans get only one tenth?
Didnt Pepsi try to garner arab sales using the Coca-cola/Israel connection during the early years of the Middle East conflict?
Thank you for the gratuitious “uninformed and ignorant” comment, greco. I am so glad you set me straight on the origins of the Shephardim, of which of course I was totally ignorant. And that link you posted really put me in my place, as it was chock-full of facts which totally contradicted my argument. :rolleyes:
I didn’t post any links, because I assumed - obviously wrongly - that the point was not controversial among those knowlegable about the ME situation. I stand corrected, and rightly. I should never assume that anything is non-controversial.
Well, you want back-up with facts – how about this:
Less than a year after Israeli independence was declared in 1948, repressive measures were taken in Iraq. Thousands of Jews were imprisoned or taken into “protective custody” on charges of “Zionism”. Jews applied in large numbers for exit permits to Israel, but legislation was quickly passed freezing Jewish bank accounts and forbidding Jews to dispose of their property without special permission. Jewish emigrants who succeeded in obtaining exit visas were allowed to take only fifty kilograms of luggage per person. Soon after, a decree was issued blocking the property of all Iraqi Jews who, by leaving the country, “had relinquished their nationality” and Jewish property was sold at public auction. A year later, laws were passed, restricting the movements of Jews, barring them from schools, hospitals and other public institutions, and refusing them import and export licenses to carry on their businesses. The program was so effective, that by the middle of July 1950 more than 110,000 Iraqi Jews had registered for emigration.
The Jewish community in Iraq had been one of the oldest and largest in the Arab world, and in 1948 it numbered 135,000. Over 77,000 lived in Baghdad alone, comprising a fourth of the capital’s population. The community was wealthy and prestigious, and before World War II, Jews held a dominant place in the import trade and occupied high government positions.
The overwhelming majority of the population was relocated to Israel, as a result of intensified anti-Jewish actions which started with the UN resolution on the partition of Palestine in 1947 and continued till after the cease fire with Israel in 1949. Hundreds were killed and imprisoned during several anti-Jewish riots. Jewish property was confiscated and Zionism, the wish to return to the Land of Zion, became a capital crime. Jews were thus forced to flee and to leave all of their belongings behind. Between 1949 and 1952, 123,371 Iraqi Jews were airlifted directly to Israel in what became to be known as “Operation Ezra and Nehemia”.
Few Jews remain in Iraq and those who do, mainly because they have not succeeded to escape, are continuously threatened with harassment by local officials or put on forced shows in their own synagogues by the Saddam Hussein regime.
Yemen
Jews had begun to leave Yemen in the 1880s, when some 2,500 had made their way to Jerusalem and Jaffa. But it was after World War I, when Yemen became independent, that anti-Jewish feeling in that country made emigration imperative. Anti-Semitic laws, which had lain dormant for years were revived, as for example: Jews were not ermitted to walk on pavements - or to ride horses. In court, a Jew’s evidence was not accepted against that of a Moslem. Jewish orphans had to be converted to Islam, and anyone who helped such children to escape did so on pain of death. When a Jew immigrated, he had to leave all his property. In spite of this, between 1923 and 1945 a total of 17,000 Yemenite Jews left and immigrated to Palestine 7.
After the Second World War, thousands of more Yemenite Jews wanted to come to Palestine, but the British Mandate’s White Paper was still in force and those who left Yemen ended up in crowded slums in Aden, where serious riots broke out in 1947 after the United Nations decided on partition. Many Yews were killed, and the Jewish quarter was burned to the ground. It was not until September 1948 that the British authorities in Aden allowed the refugees to proceed to Israel. The Egyptians had closed the Suez Canal and the Strait of Tiran to Israeli vessels, so the immigrants had to be airlifted to the new nation. By March 1949, most of the Yemenite refugees in Aden had been brought to Israel, through “Operation Magic Carpet” the dramatic airlift, which brought 48,818 Yemenite Jews to Israel. It is another example of the displacement of an entire Jewish community from its ancient roots in the Arab countries. It is estimated, there are about 1,000 Jews in Yemen today. They are held as hostages, and are kept in dire conditions and not allowed to leave.
Aden
The history of modern anti-Jewish persecutions in Aden is a bitter and long one. On December 2, 1947, the Arabs proclaimed a solidarity strike against the UN resolution on the partition of Palestine. More than a hundred Jews were murdered, the Grand Synagogue was burned, Jewish property was rampaged, looted and destroyed. Riots of similar intensity destroyed Jewish property again in 1958, 1965 and 1967.
The Jewish community of Aden, numbering 8,000 in 1948, was forced to flee. By 1959 over 3,000 arrived in Israel. Many fled to the U.S.A. and England. Today there are no Jews left in Aden.
Egypt
The 1947 Egyptian census reported 65,639 Jewish residents of that country, many of them in finances and liberal professions: engineers, lawyers, doctors and teachers. However, Jewish estimates ran as high as 100,000. Today there are only about 200 Jewish residents left in Egypt. When Egypt joined the 1948 invasion of Israel, it also promulgated anti-Jewish decrees, taking severe measures against those suspected of “Zionist” activities, including imprisonment in concentration camps in Huckstep and in El Tor in the Sinai desert. Jewish property was confiscated and hundreds of Jewish families were banished and dispossessed. Homes were bombed and many Jews were killed or wounded. A mob attacked the Jewish quarter of Cairo, killing a great number of Jews and looting their houses and shops. By November 1950, more than half the Jews had left the country; and most of them made new lives in Israel. Like the Iraqi and Syrian Jews, the Jews of Egypt had been a prosperous and rich community with assets in millions of dollars. When they were forced to uproot themselves, they lost everything.
In 1956 the Egyptians undertook ruthless economic and political measures aimed specifically at the Jews in their midst. Many leaders of the large Egyptian-Jewish community were arrested, led through the streets of Cairo and Alexandria, and some were stoned. Jewish families who had resided in Egypt for generations but had not been granted citizenship, were evicted. Only 5% of the Jews of Egypt had been allowed to become Egyptian citizens, the others were “Apatride” - with no citizenship at all, in the land of their birth. A government order was read in the mosques that Jews were to be regarded as “enemies”. (In 1967, 600 Jews were imprisoned, beaten and held for long periods without food or water.) We hear that such slogans are again used in mosques today, all over the Middle East, even in Israel.
Bank accounts were blocked, private and commercial property was confiscated, business firms were liquidated, and Jewish employees were discharged. Jewish department stores, bank and other businesses were confiscated and taken over, as were the Jewish schools, youth movements, old age homes, welfare institutions, hospitals and synagogues. Jewish judges and lawyers were expelled from the bar, and Jewish engineers, doctors and teachers were denied the right to practice. The Egyptian Medical Association instructed the population not to consult Jewish physicians and surgeons. These ruthless measures brought the end of one of the oldest and most prosperous Jewish communities in the Middle East. It comprised the uprooting of Jews from the whole of Egypt, and especially from Cairo; Alexandria and Port Said, that had been flourishing centers of a tolerant and rich Jewish life. Half of the Egyptian Jews emigrated to Israel, through France or Italy, and the other half are dispersed all over the world, like the Palestinians. Families were broken up and many hitherto prosperous people died of heart attacks when they realized, that all their wealth and property was confiscated by the (Egyptian) government, and that they had become paupers overnight.
Libya
The Jews of Libya had greatly suffered during the war years, for the country had been under Axis control and many Jews died in the concentration camps at Giado and at Auschwitz.
In November 1945, when anti-Jewish riots broke out in neighboring Egypt, a pogrom took place in Tripoli in which 130 Jews were murdered. In the wake of this violence, more than 31,000 Jews departed for Israel. The Libyan Jewish community, which numbered 38,000 in 1948, is an example of a community, which disappeared entirely.
With the outbreak of anti-Jewish riots again in 1948, the Jewish community witnessed a wave of cruel pogroms resulting in the loss of many lives and vast property. In 1951 upon Libya’s independence and membership in the Arab league, conditions worsened, and it brought much suffering to the Jews of Libya who had always been law-abiding, industrious and faithful citizens as the rest of the Jews from the Arab countries.
After the establishment of the State of Israel, Jews were forced to leave en masse. The overwhelming majority, 35,612, immigrated to Israel, as many as 30,000 arriving by 1951. Illegal emigration through Italy started in 1949. Entire communities were forced to uproot themselves. The whole community of Zliten, numbering 604, arrived in Israel in July of 1949. Similarly, entire communities from the province of Tripolitania, including the ancient cities of Garian-Tigrina and Jefren (approximately 15,000 people), arrived in Israel during 1950.
In the '60’s only a few hundred Jews remained in Libya. With the increased hostilities resulting from the Six-Day War, they too were forced to flee, and as with the other Arab countries, were forced to leave all their possessions behind. Today, Libya is “Judenrein” - “free of Jews”.
Syria
In 1943, the Jewish community of Syria had 30,000 members. This population was mainly distributed between Aleppo, where 17,000 Jews lived and Damascus, which had a Jewish population of 11,000.
Anti-Jewish riots, which broke out as early as 1945 and 1947, prompted the denial of basic rights to Jews. In 1945, the government restricted emigration to Israel, and Jewish property was burned and looted. In 1949, banks were instructed to freeze the accounts of Jews and all their assets were expropriated.
This situation caused 15,000 Jews to leave Syria by 1948, 10,000 emigrated to the U.S.A. and another 5,000 to Israel. Today, 4,350 Jews remain in Syria: and they are held as hostages in dire conditions. 3,000 live in Damascus, another 1,000 in Aleppo and 350 in Kamishli. The remaining Jews in Syria are denied free movement or any contact with the outside world. Those who have family in Israel are always in danger of persecution by local officials, and several Jewish leaders and youths were tortured and hanged over the years.
Lebanon
The emigration of Jews from Lebanon followed a somewhat different pattern as compared to the Jews of other Arab countries, primarily as a result of the Christian-Arab rule which characterized the political structure of this country and which conducted a policy of relative tolerance towards its Jewish population.
Despite the basically positive circumstances enjoyed by Lebanese Jews, they too felt insecure and decided to emigrate. The majority left for France, Israel, Italy, England and South America, and some more for Israel in 1967.
In 1974, 1,800 Jews remained in Lebanon, the majority concentrated in Beirut. Today, during the civil war in Lebanon, its size has dwindled to an estimated 150 Jews.
Morocco
The Jewish community of Morocco dates back to the destruction of the First Temple in the year 586 BCE. By 1948, this ancient community, the largest in North Africa, numbered 265,000. Composed primarily of businessmen, moneychangers, artisans and traders, the Jewish population was 73% urban and constituted 9% of the total urban population of Morocco. In 1947 a large Jewish community existed in Casablanca, with over 86,000 inhabitants 8. Other cities, which had large Jewish populations, were Marrakesh, Fez, Meknes and Rabat, each comprising a population of more than 15,000 Jews in 1947 9.
Immigration to Israel started upon the initiative of small groups who arrived at the time of Israel’s independence. However, the waves of mass immigration, which brought a total of more than 250,000 Moroccan Jews to Israel, were prompted by anti-Jewish measures carried out in response to the establishment of the State of Israel. On June 4, 1949, riots broke out in northern Morocco killing and injuring dozens of Jews. Shortly afterwards, the Jews began to leave.
During the two-year period between 1955 and 1957 alone, over 70,000 Moroccan Jews arrived in Israel. In 1956 emigration to Israel was banned and by 1959 Zionist activities became illegal in Morocco. During these years more than 30,000 Jews left for France and the Americas. In 1963, the ban on emigration to Israel was lifted bringing another 100,000 to her shores.
Today, the Jewish community of Morocco has dwindled to less than 10% of its original size. Of the 17,000 Jews that remain, two-thirds live in Casablanca. Since 1964, 30 Jewish courts have been closed down, including the High Rabbinical Court. Jewish schools still exist, but many are under Muslim administration. There has been no Jewish press in Morocco since 1966 10.
Generally speaking, the Jews who remain in Morocco have a reasonably stable existence, however, occasional outbursts of anti-Israel sentiments make daily life for Jews insecure. Some representatives of the Israeli Knesset have lately been invited for peace talks in Rabat, by King Hassan and were well received.
Algeria
In 1948 there were 140,000 Jews in Algeria. Before 1962 there were 60 Jewish communities, each maintaining at least one synagogue, one Rabbi and its own educational services. During the three months between May and July of 1962 almost all the Jewish of Algeria left the country, following the Evian Agreement, which granted independence to Algeria 10. Today, there remain merely 300 Jews.
During the struggle for independence, pressure was placed upon Jews to endorse the nationalistic cause. A spokesman for the Liberation Party indicated in 1960: “Jews will endure the consequences of their hesitant attitude when Algeria will come into being”. In addition, the existing government also harassed them. Consequently, 14,000 Jews emigrated to Israel and another 125,000 to France, leaving behind only a tiny fraction of what used to be one of North Africa’s largest Jewish communities 10.
Today, the few Jews that remain in Algeria no longer maintain any independent form of communal organization. They are under the supervision of the French Secretariat of the World Jewish Congress. In Algiers, for a community that numbered 30,000 in 1960, and had 12 synagogues, only one synagogue remains.
Tunisia
Similar to the conditions for Jews in Algeria, the rise of Tunisian nationalism led to anti-Jewish legislation and in 1961 caused Jews to leave in great numbers. In 1948, the Tunisian Jewish community had numbered 105,000, with 65,000 living in Tunis alone. By 1961, the total Jewish population had declined to 70,000 and in 1968 there were only 12,000 Jews left in Tunisia. Heightened anti-Jewish persecutions during the Six-Day-War, influenced even more to leave. In that year 7,000 emigrated to France.
The Jews of Tunisia constituted a wealthy, prestigious community, including at one time, a Member of Parliament. The change that occurred in government policy generated fear and insecurity for the Jews which eventually caused most of them to leave. Over 50,00 emigrated to Israel. In 1958, the Jewish Community Council was abolished. Today only 2,000 Jews remain in Tunisia."
Do you dispute these facts? If so, why?
It seems to me that I was totally correct in my assertion that the Jews were “kicked out”, unless you want to argue that the atroicities decribed above amount to “leaving voluntarily”. By that measure, the Palistinians who left, left “voluntarily”.
Want to withdraw the “ignorant and uninformed” comment?
Hate to quote myself, but I did make the above comment in my post; I in no way denied that Jews were indeed persecuted or suffered in Arab countries. Your tirade aside: could you have possibly found a more biased site? I used an Israeli website that at least seemed to have some balance, in hopes that it would not be rejected out of hand; as I have lived in Arabic countries for several years now, and I know Jews that do as well, I wanted something that would provide as objective a view as possible. I will admit that I demonstrated callousness in my response (which was not meant towards either you or the Jews, but I realized it was an emotional subject and a bit of a hijack, and did not want to dwell), and did not mean the “ignorant and uninformed” comment towards you directly; I should have chosen other words that better described the sensationalism exhibited in your post. I apologize for the use of both terms. I do still stick by the assertion that you should use a cite to back up your claims; the “forced” migration did not happen in every Arab country, and you were not specific. I know you may not feel it is controversial, and that it is a matter of public record, but not all feel the same way. Fair enough?
Malthus, it is highly misleading to say that 900,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab countries.
Jewish migration from Arab countries occured mainly in the period between 1948 and 1972, I am highly dubious that even the majority of these could be described as refugees.
Many did leave voluntarily, infact Israel offered (monetary) inducements and was almost coercive.
The circumstances are totally different as most of the Jews sold their property before leaving and the property lost was not personal put communal property (synagogues, etc.)
Though you have yet to prove that my post contained any “sensationalism”.
And now I have posted an article with many facts and figures contained in it.
The authors of the article agree that the expulsion was not even, and did not take place in every country: “Lebanon: The emigration of Jews from Lebanon followed a somewhat different pattern as compared to the Jews of other Arab countries, primarily as a result of the Christian-Arab rule which characterized the political structure of this country and which conducted a policy of relative tolerance towards its Jewish population.”
Is it biased? Well, maybe - it is put out by those very people who claimed to have been forcibly ejected, so I assume that they have a partisan point of view. Does that thereby mean that what they have to say is untrue? I don’t know - and apparently neither do you. But, they make lots of claims, which are in themselves testable.
For example, they post a table purporting to show that Jewish populations in the selected countries was 881,000 in 1948 and had dwindled to 25,600 by 1976 - a quite startling decrease, hard to reconcile with “voluntary” immigration:
And they give sources for these figures:
“1 - Based on: Official census of each country; yearbooks of the Jewish communities: The Jewish case before the Anglo- American Committee of Inquiry, 1946; Hayim Chohen, 1952 and 1973; David Sitton, 1974; Andre Chouraqui 1952; Joseph B. Shechtman, 1961; David Littman, 1975. (See Bibliography).”
So, unless there are sources and figures to dispute these alleged facts, I will take them, provisionally, as being true.
If you can find unbiased sources on this, I would be happy to see them. One of the primary complaints made by the Shephardim is that their situation has been, basically, ignored by everyone - that no-one cares about what they went through, whereas lots of people care about Palistinians. The relative lack of source material on their plight may be evidence of this.
As for it being an “emotional subject”, I agree - but why in the world does that excuse turning a blind eye to the facts, if indeed they are facts, and asserting as truth that there was “no force or expulsion, they went by choice”?
If you quote yourself, maybe I am free to do so as well:
“Many of the Sephardic Jews that are in Israel migrated there; no force or expulsion, but from choice. Now, don’t get me wrong: there has been persecution of Jewish communities in Arabic-speaking countries, most notably since the foundation of Israel in 1948; this should be self-evident, as that creation was considered to be an affront to Arabs and Muslims everywhere at the time. There is a strong “anti-Zionist” movement among Arabs that swelled in ranks on the creation of Israel, and that, in consequence, made life difficult for many Jewish communities. However, it should be pointed out that most of the Sephardic communities that left their homes for Israel went willingly, not forcibly. In short, a very uninformed and ignorant post; might want to try backing it up with some facts.”
I would really like to see how the population of Jews in the Arab countries listed above could possibly go from 881,000 to some 25,000 over 28 years without “force” and “expulsions”, as described in the article. That is simply, on its face, not credible. Israel is often accused of “ethnic cleansing”, yet there are considerably more than 25,000 Israeli Arabs living within pre-1967 Israel.
Of course, it could all be lies - there may have been no deliberate persecutions as described, no pogroms as described, no ‘hostage taking’ as described, no stripping of assets as described. It could all be propaganda. If so, I imagine that the claims made on the site would be relatively easy to disprove. I remain open to being convinced.
But until that time, I assert that there is a credible parallel between the plight of the Shephardim, and that of the Palistinians – and that the latter have recieved by far the lion’s share of world sympathy, and calls for restitution. No-one seriously calls for restitution to be made to the Shephardim - many of whom, as Israeli citizens, would no doubt be made to pay the proposed Palistinian restitution through their taxes.
I think the real villians in this piece are the other Arab countries, who have refused to absorb the Palistinians into their countries (as Israel has absorbed the Shephardim), and kept alive the unrealistic hope that Israel would one day be destroyed and they could go back.
The real difference, is that the Shephardim know they can never go back.
Once the Palistinians realize that Israel is permanent, maybe peace would be more likely - and a real Palistinian state established.
What is in the background of the story of cola in the Islamic world is a bizarre urban-legend conspiracy theory to get Muslims to boycott Coca-Cola over a supposed anti-Islam message in the logo. See the graphical “evidence” for the accusation here:
Even if you don’t know how to read Arabic, it will be obvious how the conspiracy theorists twisted and distorted the shape of the letters to force the mirror image of “Coca-Cola” to read “Lâ Muhammad, lâ Makkah.” In fact, as someone who does read Arabic, I can tell you that the distorted backwards Cs still do not form the word lâ (‘no’); rather, if anything, they make a positive statement with the preposition li- (‘for’), so that the backwards text actually would read ‘For Muhammad, for Mecca’.
Of course, the whole idea is a crackpot tomfoolery. But it does have very real economic consequences, when the gullible masses are convinced that it’s somehow valid.
The Coca-Cola™ corporation has issued a protestation of innocence, saying
If you disagree with the facts as stated in the article I posted, I would be delighted to hear why.
But, I will only be convinced if you can post reliable, sourced articles explaining why.
This sort of thing hardly sounds like “Israeli coercion”:
"Less than a year after Israeli independence was declared in 1948, repressive measures were taken in Iraq. Thousands of Jews were imprisoned or taken into “protective custody” on charges of “Zionism”. Jews applied in large numbers for exit permits to Israel, but legislation was quickly passed freezing Jewish bank accounts and forbidding Jews to dispose of their property without special permission. Jewish emigrants who succeeded in obtaining exit visas were allowed to take only fifty kilograms of luggage per person. Soon after, a decree was issued blocking the property of all Iraqi Jews who, by leaving the country, “had relinquished their nationality” and Jewish property was sold at public auction. A year later, laws were passed, restricting the movements of Jews, barring them from schools, hospitals and other public institutions, and refusing them import and export licenses to carry on their businesses. The program was so effective, that by the middle of July 1950 more than 110,000 Iraqi Jews had registered for emigration.
The Jewish community in Iraq had been one of the oldest and largest in the Arab world, and in 1948 it numbered 135,000. Over 77,000 lived in Baghdad alone, comprising a fourth of the capital’s population. The community was wealthy and prestigious, and before World War II, Jews held a dominant place in the import trade and occupied high government positions.
The overwhelming majority of the population was relocated to Israel, as a result of intensified anti-Jewish actions which started with the UN resolution on the partition of Palestine in 1947 and continued till after the cease fire with Israel in 1949. Hundreds were killed and imprisoned during several anti-Jewish riots. Jewish property was confiscated and Zionism, the wish to return to the Land of Zion, became a capital crime. Jews were thus forced to flee and to leave all of their belongings behind. Between 1949 and 1952, 123,371 Iraqi Jews were airlifted directly to Israel in what became to be known as “Operation Ezra and Nehemia”.
Some substantiation - a history of Bagdad Jews down to the present day: http://www.dangoor.com/74063.html
Malthus, your cite neglected to mention that Morocco’s king (the late King Hasan II) actively sought to keep Jews in his country. He said Morocco needed their learning and expertise, that they would be a positive asset to the Moroccan nation. One-sided accounts tend not to give the whole truth. Although the Jews in Arab countries had a rough time after the creation of Israel in '48, nevertheless King Hasan at least tried to make a bright spot in the otherwise dismal picture of modern Arab-Jewish relations.
Things were a lot better when the Arab and Islamic world was a welcome refuge for Jews from Christian persecution. When Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492, Sultan Bayezid of Turkey gladly invited them in. He remarked that the King of Spain must be a stupid man for getting rid of the brightest people in his kingdom. The Jews of Turkey celebrated their 500th anniversary in 1992.
It’s an excellent mideast policy. Maybe if we adopted it we’d stop sending money to Israel and funding the oppression of an occupied people. Sounds like good policy to me.
As for the Cola, I say “meh.” It won’t really hurt the Palestinians at the CocaCola plant, I can’t imagine it will cut that severely into the Coke sales figures, and Coke has a worldwide market after all. Hopefully nobody will lose their job over this. Meanwhile, if sales of the cola go to organizations trying to help the Palestinian people, then all the better. If buying a cola would get Israel to end their occupation of Palestine, I’d buy a case, but humanitarian efforts are pretty good in the meantime.
