Game 3 at Fenway, WTF?!?

Disclaimer: I am a Red Sox fan and I hate the Yankees. I had cooled to the Red Sox slightly, but then the hired the genius Bill James, and I had to start liking them again.

So I may be biased. I don’t know. Anyway here’s my question:

What the f____ was going on in that Game 3? What was Pedro doing throwing at Garcia? And then following up that performance by threatening to throw at Posada’s head?

And later the Yankees bullpen pitchers attacking a Fenway Park Groundskeeper? What is going on?

Look, I know this is an old rivalry, and an ugly one with an ugly history. Frankly I think it’s cool that, in the face of defeat, the Boston faithfull are showing their defiance by yelling “Yankees Suck! Yankees Suck!”

But Pedro’s actions were shameful. Manny’s overreaction was not much better, although that is of course a closer call. Clemens has earned his reputation as a headhunter, and I can see where Manny might have overreacted.

Is there an uglier rivalry in professional sports?

Disclaimer: I am a Yankees fan and I have an indifference for the Red Sox. I understand the hatred.
According to Peter Gammons,
“Yankee players vilified Martinez. “Guys in their bullpen were telling our guys that they can’t stand it that when he starts getting beat. He throws at guys and everyone else gets hurt,” said one Yankees star.”
There was some punk behavior by both teams - the Red Sox within the white lines and the Yankees without them.

Isn’t this why it is called Bean Town?

The Packers-Bears rivalry has gotten pretty ugly at times, like when Packers d-lineman Charles Martin (I think that was the idiot’s name) went and body slammed Chicago’s Jim Mc Mahon after the whistle blew.

Red Wings-Avalanche has had its moments as well.

Pedro Martinez should be suspended, if not for the rest of the postseason then the start of 2004.

You want to throw inside? Throw inside. You want to hit a player? Hit them on the leg or the shoulder or the wrist, if you absolutely must.

But don’t hit them in the head. Don’t throw behind their head, the scariest kind of a pitch a batter can face. His first instinct is to back UP.

Pedro knows all of this. He has excellent control. Ergo, he intended to hurt Karim Garcia.

He has zero guts. This is a player who constantly whines about not being appreciated and then threatens to skip starts because he doesn’t feel well.

But none of this constitutes his biggest crime.

He threw a 72-year-old man to the ground..

Amusingly enough, the only person who confronted Martinez was older-than-dirt Don Zimmer, who knows a thing or two about beanballs. Zim was beaned in the fifties and has a metal plate in his head as a result.

So during the fracas (in which there was much discussion but no other physicality), Zimmer made a move toward Martinez, who grabbed him and threw him violently to the ground.

Martinez is a despicable coward who wouldn’t last ten seconds in the batter’s box. He should have been ejected from the game for that incident. (And, to be fair, so should have Zimmer.)

Prior to this game, I was kind of hoping Boston would make it so their fans could quit with the kvetching, already. No more. I hope they lose and look awful doing it.

I’m a big Pedro fan but I have a real problem with him throwing at Garcia. And I think Manny way over-reacted. And I really like Zimmer from his years at Boston.

But, Zimmer was at fault in that incident. There is no way any coach should be charging an opposing pitcher with arms raised ready to swing. Pedro was completely in the right tossing Zimmer down to the ground like that. Anyone has the right to defend themselves when attacked, and (while the TV shots were focused on Pedro) it looked like Zimmer was swinging when he entered the frame. His age and history don’t excuse his behavior, if you run out on the field to attact a player, expect them to defend themselves.

I hope things settle down tonight and they play baseball, not whatever happened on Saturday. That game wasn’t good for anyone.

Oh, bullshit. If Don Zimmer is stupid enough to attack a player 40 years younger than him ( and make no mistake, he was coming at Pedro, swinging on him ), he deserves what he gets. Pedro actually reacted with restraint, dodging aside from Zimmer’s rush and taking him to the ground rather than hitting him. Frankly, AFAIC, Pedro could have knocked the plate right back out of the old fool’s head, and it wouldn’t be anyone’s fault but Don Zimmer’s. Don Zimmer called the tune by attacking Pedro, no fair whining when the time comes for him to pay the piper.

You know what the funny thing is? Zimmer was teammates with two of the most notorious headhunters in history, Sal “The Barber” Maglie and Don Drysdale.

Where was his outrage then? And for that matter, where are the tough guys that used to play, instead of these sissies who start bench-clearing fights every time someone comes within 6 inches of them with the ball?

Zimmer got exactly what he deserved. If it were me, he’d be needing another plate in his head.

More opinions in this thread.

Me? I think Zimmer lost his head and should be grateful that it is still attached to his neck.

Yeah, Zimmer was in the wrong but don’t you just gotta love a 72 year old hard ass that’ll take on someone 40 years his junior to take care of his guys? Don, you were wrong but I love you for it.

Pedro was wrong to throw high inside but he did show some restraint against Zim. No class but some restraint nevertheless.

To his credit, Zimmer has apologized for his role in the incident. I have heard no reports of Pedro or Manny doing the same. This shows the difference in class between the two organizations.

Yeah, when did they become such wimps? Like Barry Bonds complaining earlier in the year that a young pitcher “showed him up” by pumping his fist a few times after striking him out. Yet Bonds is the expert in showing pitchers up, with is bat-dropping admiration for every home run he hits. Oh, but you just don’t show up another player on the ball field. WAAAAAAHH!!! And then you have the Yankees bullpen getting all upset at the groundskeeper on Saturday, 'cause he waved a wittle ole towel in their faces. Hell, you had 35,000 other Sox fans yelling their lungs out. You can’t take one guy waving a towel? But he was in our bullpen, Mommy!


Why should Pedro have to apologize? Did Dock Ellis ever apologize for his announced and blatant attempt to mow down the entire Cincinnatti Reds lineup on Opening Day 1974? How about Roger Clemens for throwing at Mike Piazza? Throwing at batters is part of the game, and it always has been. Until recently, that is, when the batters started wearing body armor and started digging in right on top of the plate, and decided that the pitchers were trying to end their multi-million dollar careers rather than trying to preserve their own.

The only apology required was Zimmer’s, since he was the attacker in the situation. He came out of the dugout, he went right at Pedro, and if it were me, he’d be somewhere over the equator in geostationary orbit right now as hard as I would have hit him.

So, let’s not bring class into this. The only guy with no class is the bench coach who made himself into a sideshow by sticking his nose where it didn’t belong.

I’ve been a Yankee fan for over a quarter of a century. Despite my allegiance, Zimmer was in the wrong for charging Pedro.

Pedro did throw at Garcia. That was no accident. Garcia got a little payback by spiking the 2nd baseman. Ramirez got upset over a high pitch that was over the plate. What next; does he charge the mound on a disputed called strike? Clemens is NOT shy about throwing at people - he did not throw at Ramirez.

As for the bullpen incident, I really look forward to seeing how that turns out. If Nelson is in the wrong, charge him and try him. However, if all the eyewitnesses can’t get their stories straight, then something is screwy.

Pedro deliberately aimed for Garcia’s head. There is no question about it. This has no place in today’s game. Whether or not Clemens ever did it in his career is irrelevent. Pedro also incited the Yankee dugout with his head pointing. Pedro also pushed an old man to the ground when he could have just as easily jumped out of the way. Pedro has the most to apologize for.

Manny went nuts over a ball over the plate. He has the second most to apologize for.

The Boston groundskeeper started the bullpen fight and has the third most to apologize for.

Zimmer has the least to apologize for, yet he did. This is the difference in class.

Which is it? Was he “dodging aside” or “taking him to the ground”? Couldn’t he just dodge aside, or was it asking too much of the fucking hothead to do so?

Good Lord, what pathetic logic. If Pedro wasn’t such a chickenshit little fuckhead, he wouldn’t have 72-year-old men chasing his skinny ass down.

Pedro acted with zero restraint. Oh, unless by “restraint” you mean “grabbed Zimmerman by the head and threw him down.” Get a fucking clue. There was no restraint involved.

Pedro threw him to the ground precisely because he knew Zimmerman was the only person on the entire field he could do that to. He’s only strong when he’s firing a baseball at your head like a fucking coward.

No one’s saying Zimmerman is fautless, because of course he’s not. But please don’t tell me Martinez isn’t. As far as I could tell, he wasn’t lying on the ground, and he sure as hell didn’t have to go to the hospital later. A wiser, more mature player would have sidestepped Zimmerman rather than throwing him down like a fucking petulant little creep.

No offense, but who gives a wild fuck about Dock Ellis? Was he there last night?

Throwing at batters is certainly part of the game, but I got news for you - throwing at their fucking heads shouldn’t be. Those helmets aren’t all that thick. Or is it okay by you that people’s careers and perhaps lives end because some half-wit had the “guts” to intentionally try to hurt someone?

Pitchers have every right to throw inside - they better, or they’ll pay for it with a home run. They do not have the right to throw at someone’s head.

If anyone here thinks it’s perfectly okay and that other players oughta suck it up, how about you step in the batter’s box yourself and give it a try? 90 MPH at your head. Might make you change your tune a little.

Bravo! Such a brave, tough guy you are! If you’d like, I can scare up a kindergartner or two to take a run at you. Anything to make you puff your chest and grunt your obvious superiority.

You must have missed Pedro’s inciting. He picked a fight with Zimmer by screaming at him in the dugout. Then he basically told Posada he was going to hit him in the head, too. No, this is not okay. This is a childish little shit tossing a temper tantrum.

And the freakish pipsqueak who has balls only when he has a ball in his hand. Pedro is an absolute embarrassment to the Red Sox.

Yes PM was wrong for throwing at his head bit Zimmer was just as wrong for charging him. PM reacted to Zimmers attack with restraint and owes no apology for throwing him to the ground. Did PM attack Zim when he fell to the ground? No.

PM will never apologize for the pitch. Neither would (or has)Clemens or any other headhunter.

Manny won’t do it so don’t hold your breath. He overreacted and everyone knows it.

Cite please. Last I read Nelson was the agressor in the melee and Garcia jumped into the bullpen to join in on the beating. Where is your souce that the groundskeeper (Williams?) started it? Didn’t the Boston Police back up the grounskeepers story?

Really? So it is ok to charge at someone but its not ok to protect yourself from someone charging at you? Wow that is really interesting. The reason Zimmer apologized was because he knows what he did was wrong.

Did Zimmer not have class when he managed the Redsox? Just curious if he only has class when he is in a Yankee uniform.

Of course guys like Maglie and Drysdale had to bat, where as Pedro never does.

I’m a life long Yankee fan, but Zim was on the field, he was looking to fight, and he swung. Things would have been much worse if Pedro decided to swing back instead of just throwing Zim away. Its not like Pedro cheap shotted him or something. The Yankee players should be ashamed that a 72 year old coach had more balls than they did.

This series is very close to turning very ugly, but hopefully the rain day might have helped calm things down.

I speculate that the groundskeeper instigated the incident. This isn’t Great Debates, so I can speculate freely.

Regarding Zimmer-Martinez, obviously due to his age Zimmer does not pose a credible threat to Martinez. He could merely have stepped aside. Zim was wrong, and he has apologized for his minor role. However, his share of blame pales in comparison next to Pedro and Manny, the cowardly Red Sox.