I’m making my point that when a pitcher throws at someone, historically they’ve never apologized, even when it was obvious. Why should Pedro? Because he offends YOUR sensibilities? Pshaw.
What, you don’t think it hurts to get hit in the ribs? It’s OK to hurt someone, just so long as it’s not the head? :rolleyes: If Jerkwater McFucknuts is gonna dig in and hang his head over the plate, he’d better be able to dodge the ball, because he’s gonna get a real good look at it. And why is it that the batter can put his feet almost on top of the plate but pitchers are “half-wits” when they scare them back off of it?
Why not? Becuase it offends you and your notion of a kinder, gentler game?
Why do you think I quit playing? I got hit, and as a result I got plate shy. That’s what I get for digging in on someone too close to the plate.
And, of course, there’s no difference between a grown man who knows better and a kid who doesn’t. I guess the if I ever get assaulted I should just remember that I would never defend myself against a kindergartner, so I should just let the guy beat the shit out of me. Nice strawman. :rolleyes:
Yeah, so? He’s a baseball player. You act like this sort of thing never happens.
Spare me your indignity and your moral outrage. I’m not impressed.
And I’m making the point that Dock Ellis’s era is long, long gone, and that the actions of past pitchers have no bearing on this situation.
Hm.
No, I’m sure it hurts to get hit in the ribs. But I’m pretty sure it hurts a hell of a lot more to get hit in the head. Call me crazy.
Second, Garcia certainly wasn’t hanging over the plate - and, moreover, he was hit in the back, up by his head. You’re introducing elements that have no bearing on this situation. If a player stands over the plate, as so many of them do, then the pitcher better brush him off it. Brush him off it. Not hit him in the head. The same message gets sent whether he gets hit in the head or in the arm, so why aim for the head unless you’re bent on injuring him?
Spoken by someone who’s never faced a major-league fastball before.
Maybe your perception of baseball differs from that of most people, but it’s not a game in which the object is to hurt the other guy. That would be football. Or hockey.
Using your logic, it would be perfectly okay for the batter to beat the catcher over the head if he felt the catcher was getting too close.
Garcia wasn’t digging in too close.
Look, I’m not saying Zimmerman didn’t know better. He knew better. He did it anyway. He did a Bad Thing. And most kids would know it was a Bad Thing, too. You missed the point. The point is that like a kindergartner would be against you or any other grownup, Zimmerman was tremendously overmatched against Martinez. As you would not fight back against a kindergartner who can’t really hurt you anyway, Martinez shouldn’t have fought back against an old man who probably couldn’t hurt him, either.
No, I’m not. Oddly enough, though, simply because something has happened before doesn’t make it okay. People are saying Zimmerman was the instigator. He was not - Pedro had been trying to get the Yankees to take a swing at him for an inning. As it turns out, Zimmerman was the only person to come at him, ill-advised as it was.
Look, Airman, I apologize for the tone of my posts, but here’s the thing. Throwing inside is a part of the game, and it always should be. Pitchers better throw inside. Batters tend to lean over, because they know they’ll get hit, and with their armor and padding, it won’t hurt as much. But some pitchers take it too far, and they go for the head.
I can understand wanting to send a message, and I know about the credo that says if your guy was hit, then you gotta hit their guy. Okay, it’s neanderthal, but whatever works. But really, if you have to hit someone, there’s a lot of places you could hit. Going for the head just seems excessively mean and completely unnecessary.
As the Yankees get worked up into a self-righteous snit over Pedro it is instructive to remember Clemens intentional beaning of Piazza, and he did hit him in the head. No one seriously believed that was not intentional, nor was it ancient history.
The Yankees did not apologize, nor, to my knowledge did they even contemplate it. For better or worse, there are a few pitchers who will throw at a batter to intimidate. The Yankees and Red Sox each have one of the worst offenders. Doesn’t leave either team much room for righteous indignation.
Ok but if you are going to speculate perhaps you should add comments like “I believe” or “I think”. Don’t knowingly make a statement as fact without being able to back it up. That applies in any thread.
I didn’t realize that age was a defining factor in ones ability to cause harm. There was no credible way Zim could have cause harmed to PM? Amazing! Then why did Zim try to harm him? Surely someone Zims age should know that. What a waste of energy to attempt such an act. :rolleyes:
Were Nelson and Garcia (who came off the field) brave heros for ganging up on the groundskeeper? Just wondering.
Oh and ESPN’s “Daily Quickie” agrees that Zim got what he deserved. Apparently they didn’t realize that some people think Pedro over reacted. In fact they want to know why Zim was only fined $5,000.
fruitbat, I’m not sure, but I don’t think anyone’s calling for Pedro to apologize to Garcia–I think they’re calling for him to apologize for the taunting of the Yankees and what he did to Zimmer–even though Zimmer was at fault, so was Pedro. Although, I could be wrong.
AFAIK, just about everyone’s been fined, and the two Yankees from the bullpen are facing charges. Anyone care to clue me in?
Everybody has limits, Pedro pushed Zimmer to his. When that limit is reached, common sense goes out the window. Everybody knows Zimmer couldn’t really hurt Martinez, the heat of the moment caused Zimmer to lose that realization. If you look back at the whole ugly mess, none of this would have happened had Pedro not gone head hunting.
I believe that the groundskeeper initiated the altercation. Had it been otherwise, the police would be overwhelmed with witnesses saying so.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. The cite mentioned by NYR407 certainly feels differently than I do. Here is an opposing view.
Actually, Pedro lasted four years in the batter’s box when he played in the NL. He had a reputation as a headhunter back then, too.
I’m guessing you either haven’t seen the highlights, or have never been in a fight. In real life, your chances of sidestepping someone that’s coming after you are slim and none, and the chances of of not having to deal with him when he comes back around are even worse. Better to deal with the situation as it arises.
I also see no reason that Pedro is the only one that could have stepped out of the way. Why do you assume that it’s the starting pitcher’s responsibility to avoid a fight? Wouldn’t Pedro have lost a little bit of respect if he’d run from a 72 year old man with a gigantic head? When someone comes after you to start a fight, it’s not your responsibility to judge whether they’re capable of sustaining a beating. If they aren’t, then they shouldn’t come after you.
Having said that, I think Pedro should not have thrown high at Garcia. The reason players don’t put up with that stuff now is because they don’t have to. After a few Dickie Thons, the players figured out that “establishing the inside part of the plate” is not worth ending someone’s career, especially when a shot to the ass is nearly as effective. Although none of the commentators seem to share my view, I think Pedro threw a 4 seamer that rode higher than he intended. But it certainly is suspicious that a guy that could probably hit a knat at 67 feet had that one get away from him.
Still waiting for that scientific study that shows how impossible it would have been for Zim to hurt Pedro. You are living in a fantasy world.
When the facts of the groundskeeper confrontation are revealed I think you will owe an apology to him. Remember, this happened in the bullpen which is below eye level to most of the fans (who are watching the game). Also, I read that the Boston Police back the GK story.
And your cite says nothing about Pedro being wrong for throwing Zim to the ground. If I missed it perhaps you can quote the section. They did how ever call Zims attack “foolhardy” and that Pedro makes himself look nastier than Clemens (referring to the beaning).
His reputation isn’t the same now as it was then. Back then, his control wasn’t nearly as good as it is now, so he’s thought as more malicious now than just some guy who let one get away from him.
He did have 246 AB in the National League and was hit all of three times, but my thinking is that if he were to bat now, he might be tasting some dust. (Same for Clemens, in the interest of evenhandedness.)
Never been in a fight? Oh yes. Been beaned. Slid hard into third once and swung at the third baseman. A few other times, too. Of course, the players were smaller, and they didn’t throw the ball as fast or as hard.
Even though a couple of Yankees are about to be arrested, that still doesn’t shock me as much as The Gerbil thinking he could take Pedro on. He does know it now, and you gotta give him credit for facing it like a man - the only one to do so thus far, though.
It’s a factor, not the defining one. Just because Zim tried to harm him doesn’t mean he would have - or could have. You know the expression, “the eyes are bigger than the stomach”? That kind of applies here. Zimmerman wrongly let his emotions run away with him before reason could stand firm. **
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Zimmer’s career didn’t end when he got hit. In fact, he continued on for a few years, and the pitchers were terrified of pitching to him because he froze, also known as a “plate paralytic”.
It may have contributed to his early demise, I’ll say that, but in retrospect that’s probably the best thing that could have happened to him, for while he was a good infielder, he never really hit worth a damn. He’s had a far more illustrious career as a coach and manager than he could possibly have had as a player.
That report clears up some things for me. Sounds like all the guy did was cheer a little, which he’s probably discouraged from doing while in the employ of the team while in the bullpen of the opposing team. Even so, I can’t see anything that would warrant an attack, and it surely looks like Nelson did it.
If Zim only fell onto Pedro he could have easily broken Pero’s finger, arm, wrist, etc. etc… So he definately could have.
While Zim is not the model of physical fitness he isn’t moving around on a walker either. His weight with the force behind it is enough to harm someone.
Of course, the players were smaller, and they didn’t throw the ball as fast or as hard.